The MMA "cage?" TMA "freedom?"

[Hand Sword]

No, not what those competitors fight in but one in the physical, mental, and emotional sense. I bring this topic here from a spirited conversation I witnessed recently because I was hoping the same would come here. The gist of it was in the idea of being an art's master and not a servant. The point was made that both MMA and TMA share the servant mentality in the beginning because every tries to learn the patterns set forth by their teachers. From there, after years of comfort, the TMA guys claimed that their ways break the chains and that the system then becomes the practitioners servant. They claimed that's why their ways are ultimately superior because it leads to a true expression of the person and a real martial artist. Supposedly, the MMA being bound by a rule set and therefore certain techniques, creates a "cage" for those practitioners. Though they also get to comfort zone or mastery of a technique, the best they can ever do is get good or perfect with their attributes. Though that is an awesome feat, the claim is that it is still nothing more than becoming an expert and not a master. They don't create and express, they simply do, albeit well to awesome. The TMA side also claimed emotionally, and mentally there is a full experience of all facets. They said the MMA is again "caged" to one way- the negative, violent, and angry and that it will transfer to to their souls permanently, just awaiting something to set it off in cage, home, etc..

What do you all think?

 

[Tez3]

No, not what those competitors fight in but one in the physical, mental, and emotional sense. I bring this topic here from a spirited conversation I witnessed recently because I was hoping the same would come here. The gist of it was in the idea of being an art's master and not a servant. The point was made that both MMA and TMA share the servant mentality in the beginning because every tries to learn the patterns set forth by their teachers. From there, after years of comfort, the TMA guys claimed that their ways break the chains and that the system then becomes the practitioners servant. They claimed that's why their ways are ultimately superior because it leads to a true expression of the person and a real martial artist. Supposedly, the MMA being bound by a rule set and therefore certain techniques, creates a "cage" for those practitioners. Though they also get to comfort zone or mastery of a technique, the best they can ever do is get good or perfect with their attributes. Though that is an awesome feat, the claim is that it is still nothing more than becoming an expert and not a master. They don't create and express, they simply do, albeit well to awesome. The TMA side also claimed emotionally, and mentally there is a full experience of all facets. They said the MMA is again "caged" to one way- the negative, violent, and angry and that it will transfer to to their souls permanently, just awaiting something to set it off in cage, home, etc..

What do you all think?

Now that is just funny! it makes MMA fighters sound like mindless animals when in fact, guess what, they are martial artist. They don't get angry when fighting, no one should anyone, quickest way to lose any fight/encounter. They don't get negative again another quick way to lose a fight. Aftr a fight is finished one of things we find we have to do is separate the two fighters outside the cage. Why? because they are busy going over the fight one saying, 'that was a great move you got me with with, how did you do it?' the other fighter' here let me show you and hey that was a great counter to my xxx move how did you do that?' They will spend hours standing in the way going over things and showing each other moves in the most friendly way, they have admiration ofr each other and respect and they have a thirst for learning we all understand. The public won't see this, its not shown on television and we have to move them to make way for the next fight.

This is basically another way to bash MMA people and talk up how TMA is superior. The answer to that is the teenagers staple "whatever!" Each to their own.

 

[Bruno@MT]

No, not what those competitors fight in but one in the physical, mental, and emotional sense. I bring this topic here from a spirited conversation I witnessed recently because I was hoping the same would come here. The gist of it was in the idea of being an art's master and not a servant. The point was made that both MMA and TMA share the servant mentality in the beginning because every tries to learn the patterns set forth by their teachers. From there, after years of comfort, the TMA guys claimed that their ways break the chains and that the system then becomes the practitioners servant. They claimed that's why their ways are ultimately superior because it leads to a true expression of the person and a real martial artist. Supposedly, the MMA being bound by a rule set and therefore certain techniques, creates a "cage" for those practitioners. Though they also get to comfort zone or mastery of a technique, the best they can ever do is get good or perfect with their attributes. Though that is an awesome feat, the claim is that it is still nothing more than becoming an expert and not a master. They don't create and express, they simply do, albeit well to awesome. The TMA side also claimed emotionally, and mentally there is a full experience of all facets. They said the MMA is again "caged" to one way- the negative, violent, and angry and that it will transfer to to their souls permanently, just awaiting something to set it off in cage, home, etc..

What do you all think?

That your post would benefit from breaking it up into paragraphs instead of posting it as one contiguous hard to follow piece of text.

 

[Sukerkin]

This is basically another way to bash MMA people and talk up how TMA is superior.

And? {Shrugs shoulders in perplexed fashion}.

Traditional Martial Arts are so clearly superior to MMA that I don't even know why this topic keeps resurfacing. Are the SAS superior to the TA? Of course they are. Is tennis a better game than rugby? Of course it is! Plain as day. End of ...

... {waits} ...

... {waits some more} ...

... {haven't heard the "Boom!!!" yet}

:lol:

 

[Xue Sheng]

This is a very old argument, only the names of the subject has changed to TMA vs. MMA instead of IMA vs. EMA

A hundred years ago or so in China the argument started that Internal Martial Arts was by far superior to External Martial Arts. Much of this argument came from the fact that some, (louder or more literate) IMA people of lesser skill decided to say that IMA was superior to EMA and they did not want to have to fight to prove it because they did not want to hurt the poor EMA guy. Thereby they avoided getting their butts kicked, saved face and looked tough all at the same time.

Basically you are saying that TMA people are philosophically superior to MMA people or it could be that TMA folks have higher IQs than MMA folks....either way that, in the opinion of this old IMA/TMA guy, is a load of rubbish.

Please can we stop doing these comparisons that range from the silly to the insulting in order to make ourselves (TMA People) look and feel superior to MMA people because in reality we feel threatened by MMA people and instead and just shut up and train.

 

[Tez3]

And? {Shrugs shoulders in perplexed fashion}.

Traditional Martial Arts are so clearly superior to MMA that I don't even know why this topic keeps resurfacing. Are the SAS superior to the TA? Of course they are. Is tennis a better game than rugby? Of course it is! Plain as day. End of ...

... {waits} ...

... {waits some more} ...

... {haven't heard the "Boom!!!" yet}

:lol:

Ah but what about the TA SAS?

Of course rugby is better than tennis, more men in shorts for one thing! Certainly more violence, remember violence solves everything!

Of course TMAs are superior to MMA which is why we use TMAs in MMA, what on earth do people think we do in MMA? Tiddley Winks?
Mixed martial arts = Karate, Judo, TKD, MT, BJJ, Aikido, CMAs, TSD, as well as wrestling and boxing, dirty boxing at that, got to love it. When people slam MMA they are basically slamming TMAs, so carry on I say, gives me something to chew people out over, makes wonderful stress relief :lol:

 

[Sukerkin]

Ah but what about the TA SAS?

I KNEW you would mention that . I couldn't think of another 'comparison' off the top of my head that wouldn't run the risk of causing real offence to any of our military members here .

Of course rugby is better than tennis, more men in shorts for one thing!

Nonsense! Tennis has much more in the way of women in short skirts. Plus, champagne rather than beer. Clearly superior in all ways! :lol:

More seriously, I was going to spell out that MMA obviously stands for Mixed Martial Arts i.e. it has elements of the traditional arts as part of it. I do actually think that a lot of the philosophy that is involved in TMA training is missing from MMA but that is because there are different goals involved.

 

[Steve]

Reminds me of two things I firmly believe. First, that the best martial art is the one in which you currently train. And second, the prettiest girl in the bar is the one that finds you attractive.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Of course TMAs are superior to MMA which is why we use TMAs in MMA, what on earth do people think we do in MMA? Tiddley Winks?
Mixed martial arts = Karate, Judo, TKD, MT, BJJ, Aikido, CMAs, TSD, as well as wrestling and boxing, dirty boxing at that, got to love it. When people slam MMA they are basically slamming TMAs, so carry on I say, gives me something to chew people out over, makes wonderful stress relief :lol:

OH so I see you think MMA is better than FMA then since you neglected to list is as part of MMA...is that it... AND WHAT POINTED STICKS :uhyeah:

Just thought I would get a head start on the silliness to follow

 

[WC_lun]

I really dislike the this vs that post. TMA and MMA are both martial arts. The differences that count are between schools and training methodology. A school that does not have contact with fully resisting opponents at some point, will miss much of what instills the positives for which martial arts are known. MMA has that in spades. Yes MMA is a sport, trained for a specific rule set, but honestly, so are most so-called TMA schools.

 

[Tez3]

I KNEW you would mention that . I couldn't think of another 'comparison' off the top of my head that wouldn't run the risk of causing real offence to any of our military members here .



Nonsense! Tennis has much more in the way of women in short skirts. Plus, champagne rather than beer. Clearly superior in all ways! :lol:

More seriously, I was going to spell out that MMA obviously stands for Mixed Martial Arts i.e. it has elements of the traditional arts as part of it. I do actually think that a lot of the philosophy that is involved in TMA training is missing from MMA but that is because there are different goals involved.

We don't score goals in MMA! Nah.... kidding.

I'm not sure about the philosophy bit as I've been to plenty of TMA places where there has been no philosophy involved other than good sports manship and good manners are expected. When I trained Wado and when I went to TKD as well as TSD there were no tenets, no founders beliefs, nothing other than training. In MMA there's great respect for each other and good sportsmanship is everything. Discipline isn't shouted about because it's a very obvious attribute an MMA fighter needs, self control is another. We don't have to have placards all over walls to say we believe in these we live them instead. Things like courtesy before a fight, respect afterwards, obeying the ref even when they think he/she is wrong, all this is 'philosophy' but lived not preached.
Go to any MMA gym or club and you will be pleasantly surprised by the philosophy practised there.

 

[Sukerkin]

Very good points there, Tez :tup:

Sadly, the reason why I am on here posting rather than working is about to come to pass - off to the dentist I go to get a tooth fixed that I broke on Saturday .

Sensei Pain is about to make a call {to my wallet as well, no doubt} :cries:.

 

[Hand Sword]

Moderators,

Please remove this thread. Thank you.

 

[ap Oweyn]

Moderators,

Please remove this thread. Thank you.

Why? It could be interesting. And it certainly hasn't gotten hostile amongst members.

 

[ap Oweyn]

I agree with Tez, unsurprisingly. I think this is rhetoric. Not that both sides can't produce an astounding amount of empty rhetoric, mind you.

Here's my question: What does it actually mean to "express yourself through a martial art"?

What makes the performance of a martial art an act of self-expression? Some element of creativity? Some performance outside of actual combat?

It seems to me that people usually have a shape placed on their performance, either by the rules of the competition or the stylistic conventions of their style(s). Within those constraints, people are free to use their tools at their discretion. But it seems awfully grandiose to call that "self-expression."

When that MMA fighter with the capoeira background took out his opponent with one of those spinning-hand-on-the-ground hook kicks, was he trapped by the ruleset? Or expressing his cultural and training heritage? Did he throw that kick because it was the best tool for the job? Or because it was hella fun? Is there self-expression there? Or simply an adherence to the ruleset?

And how does that differ from TMA? It's not difficult to imagine (having been through it myself) having your round kick technique "corrected" in a taekwondo class because you're throwing it like a muay thai stylist would. Is that freedom?

I think it's fine to recognize and analyze the differences between one thing and another. But we then have to take the time to really explore what we're saying. "Self-expression" is utterly meaningless without further explanation. I think it's an interesting comment. I just want to understand the thought process that went into it.


Stuart

 

[Tez3]

Very good points there, Tez :tup:

Sadly, the reason why I am on here posting rather than working is about to come to pass - off to the dentist I go to get a tooth fixed that I broke on Saturday .

Sensei Pain is about to make a call {to my wallet as well, no doubt} :cries:.

Oh lord that's not nice at all!

At least my tooth that keeps getting knocked out is a crown and it still goes back with superglue!

 

[teekin]

OH so I see you think MMA is better than FMA then since you neglected to list is as part of MMA...is that it... AND WHAT POINTED STICKS :uhyeah:

Just thought I would get a head start on the silliness to follow

Poiinted sticks I'm fine with, it ripe fruit I live in fear of. :anic: What if some one comes at me with an apple? Or a yellow bannana! Or worse a Zombie weilding a yellow Bannana ? What then? We have never covered this in either my TMA or MMA classes. I'm doomed. :wah:

 

[Xue Sheng]

Poiinted sticks I'm fine with, it ripe fruit I live in fear of. :anic: What if some one comes at me with an apple? Or a yellow bannana! Or worse a Zombie weilding a yellow Bannana ? What then? We have never covered this in either my TMA or MMA classes. I'm doomed. :wah:

Then this is the class for you

 

[Hand Sword]

Moderators, Please. Please erase my thread.

MT'ers just let it die please.

 

[Tez3]

Poiinted sticks I'm fine with, it ripe fruit I live in fear of. :anic: What if some one comes at me with an apple? Or a yellow bannana! Or worse a Zombie weilding a yellow Bannana ? What then? We have never covered this in either my TMA or MMA classes. I'm doomed. :wah:

I had someone come at me with a takeaway curry in a tinfoil container in his hand once, he tripped over (he was as nissed as a pewt) it all spilled on the ground so he scooped it all up, gravel and all, forgot about me and carried on eating it.