Happy medium between TMA and MMA for self defense?

[cfr]

For the purpose of this thread so we don’t go sideways into what is what:

TMA = Karate, Kung Fu, etc.
MMA = Muay Thai, BJJ, etc.

I have claimed many times to be a “middle of the roader” between MMA and TMA. I think it’s lame:

For TMA guys to assume that MMA guys can’t defend themselves in the street. To assume that their too dumb to not realize that they’re not in a ring and that they aren’t bound by rules.

For MMA guys to assume that TMA guys would be unable to defend against a live, resisting opponent. To assume that they will try to fight from a horse stance, while practicing a kata, etc.

I’d say that most of what I do where we train more closely resembles MMA than TMA. Probably an 80/20 ratio, and that is what is inspiring this question. Does anyone else out there think there can be a happy medium between TMA and MMA for use in Self Defense? Does anyone else train similar to this?

 

[searcher]

I think we should still pursue the knowledge we need to better ourselves as martial artists. I choose to preserve what has been passed on to me by supplementing it with whatever works. I will not, however, discard techniques that don't work for ME. I keep them since there is a chance that they will work for one of my students. I don't think I have a particular percentage between MMA and TMA. I choose to work the techniques and let them fall where they may. JMHO.

 

[Xue Sheng]

We are all martial arts what is the big damn deal.

. Does anyone else out there think there can be a happy medium between TMA and MMA for use in Self Defense?

Just as much as there can be a happy medium between Karate and Kung Fu or Japanese Jujitsu and BJJ or Muay Thai and Hapkido or Xingyiquan and Baguazhang or Yichuan and Judo for self defense.

So yes I do.

Does anyone else train similar to this?

I do now, I train the police version of Sanda (Sanshou) and Chen Style Tai Chi. I am a long time CMA guy with mainly an Internal CMA background Taiji and Xingyi that just started Sanda and Sanda is both incredibly traditional and incredibly modern in its approach.


And with that being said let the games begin also known as the "my martial art is better than yours" argument.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Why is what an issue? What isnt a big deal? Who is arguing? Who are you directing this too?

Did you reply to the correct post?

The original post.

I asked why TMA/MMA is considered such a big Self defense issue when it only encompasses so little of the spectrum OF self defense.

I don't know who's arguing, I just keep seeing this Us vs. Them thing pop up with MMA/TMA and can't for the life of me understand it, so I thought a list of more relevant things for self defense would put some perspective on things.

I was directing it to everyone who would like to read it.

Does that help clear things up?

 

[Andy Moynihan]

"What you are arguing about" is edited to "what seems to be getting argued about" for the sake of clarity. Sorry.

 

[zDom]

For the purpose of this thread so we don’t go sideways into what is what:

TMA = Karate, Kung Fu, etc.[/FONT][/SIZE]
MMA = Muay Thai, BJJ, etc.

Sorry, but I have to disagree -- and can't just let this go.

Muay Thai and BJJ are not "mixed martial arts." They are just two TMA that the majority of MMA'ist consider to be appropriate ingredients for their "mix."

This argument is as silly as the people who think that Long Island Iced Teas will get you super drunk because it has 10 types of liquor in it.

Well, the truth is, if you drink a tall glass of ANY liquor (providing it's not watered down) it is going to get you drunk.

You may like the flavor of a Long Island Iced Tea better than the same glass filled with straight bourbon -- but the alcohol content is the same.

Moreover, because you aren't sticking a splash of soda in it, the tall glass of bourbon may be even STRONGER as it hasn't been diluted with any soda.

MMA artists sometimes remind of this girlfriend I had that liked the sandwhich from Burger King but like McDonald's fries and then had to go to Dairy Queen for a desert.

If that's what it takes to make you happy, and you are getting what you want: great for you! But don't think I can't get everything I want from Steak 'n Shake -- because I CAN and DO.

Likewise, I don't mix my martial arts because the dojang where I train is giving me everything I want and think I need. Of course, some might argue that hapkido IS a pre-packaged mixed martial art, so that might explain it

Maybe I'm just lucky in that I found a "one stop shop" dojang to work out in.

I never assume a MMA'ist can't fight on the street, although I do wonder if those who tape their wrists, for example, (both MMA *and* TMA) aren't setting themselves up for a nasty surprise when they strike someone with an untaped wrist, for example.

It all comes down to who is training hard and well. Heck, even within a single school, you can find some who are scary-effective and others who can't fight their way out of a paper bag.

Final two cents on this:

I think BJJ and Muay Thai are the preferred ingredients for MMA because you can get useable technique in a relatively short time.

How long does it take to teach someone to lift their knee for a strike? Swing an elbow? How many repetitions does it take to make them effective?

How long does it take to teach the guard position? A scoop throw?

Compare that with trying to teach someone a jump spinning heel kick or a sweeping hip throw.

MMA ring fighters don't want to spend 10 years honing techniques: they just want to get in that ring and kick some booty, neh?

So I think their choices are good. And I have no doubt a 2-year MMA student has an advantage over a 2-year TMA student.

But you know who is scarier to me than Chuck Liddell, Matt Hughes or Rich Franklin?

Those old-school hard core Korean grandmasters.

As a black belt, I can see lower ranked belts coming from a mile away when they decide to throw a technique. I actually have to wait sometimes for them to fully commit before countering.

And those grandmasters can see US coming from two miles away.

Props to you young Turks who want to get in the ring right away and prove something to yourself about yourself. I'm not knocking what you are doing since that's what you want to do.

But a guy like me, nearly 40? Injuries take too long to heal. I've played hardball, and it was fun. But now I want to be able to take care of myself when I'm 60.

No thanks: no Muay Thai in my MA; I prefer Korean kicking just fine.

No thanks: no BJJ in my MA; I prefer to get my Judo via Hapkido instead of Brazil.

But thanks for offering. (raises a toast of pure bourbon, neat) Cheers!

 

[cfr]

All, please take my questions for exactly what they say, not what you think the deeper meaning may have been. I have no desire for another "TMA vs MMA", "my style is better than your style", "here is why I won't do TMA or MMA", etc. type of thread. I am really curious as to who else attempts to integrate both schools of thought.

 

[cfr]

For the purpose of this thread so we don’t go sideways into what is what:

TMA = Karate, Kung Fu, etc.
MMA = Muay Thai, BJJ, etc.

I have claimed many times to be a “middle of the roader” between MMA and TMA. I think it’s lame:

For TMA guys to assume that MMA guys can’t defend themselves in the street. To assume that their too dumb to not realize that they’re not in a ring and that they aren’t bound by rules.

For MMA guys to assume that TMA guys would be unable to defend against a live, resisting opponent. To assume that they will try to fight from a horse stance, while practicing a kata, etc.

I’d say that most of what I do where we train more closely resembles MMA than TMA. Probably an 80/20 ratio, and that is what is inspiring this question. Does anyone else out there think there can be a happy medium between TMA and MMA for use in Self Defense? Does anyone else train similar to this?

Sorry, but I have to disagree -- and can't just let this go.

Muay Thai and BJJ are not "mixed martial arts." They are just two TMA that the majority of MMA'ist consider to be appropriate ingredients for their "mix."

This argument is as silly as the people who think that Long Island Iced Teas will get you super drunk because it has 10 types of liquor in it.

Well, the truth is, if you drink a tall glass of ANY liquor (providing it's not watered down) it is going to get you drunk.

You may like the flavor of a Long Island Iced Tea better than the same glass filled with straight bourbon -- but the alcohol content is the same.

Moreover, because you aren't sticking a splash of soda in it, the tall glass of bourbon may be even STRONGER as it hasn't been diluted with any soda.

MMA artists sometimes remind of this girlfriend I had that liked the sandwhich from Burger King but like McDonald's fries and then had to go to Dairy Queen for a desert.

If that's what it takes to make you happy, and you are getting what you want: great for you! But don't think I can't get everything I want from Steak 'n Shake -- because I CAN and DO.

Likewise, I don't mix my martial arts because the dojang where I train is giving me everything I want and think I need. Of course, some might argue that hapkido IS a pre-packaged mixed martial art, so that might explain it

Maybe I'm just lucky in that I found a "one stop shop" dojang to work out in.

I never assume a MMA'ist can't fight on the street, although I do wonder if those who tape their wrists, for example, (both MMA *and* TMA) aren't setting themselves up for a nasty surprise when they strike someone with an untaped wrist, for example.

It all comes down to who is training hard and well. Heck, even within a single school, you can find some who are scary-effective and others who can't fight their way out of a paper bag.

Final two cents on this:

I think BJJ and Muay Thai are the preferred ingredients for MMA because you can get useable technique in a relatively short time.

How long does it take to teach someone to lift their knee for a strike? Swing an elbow? How many repetitions does it take to make them effective?

How long does it take to teach the guard position? A scoop throw?

Compare that with trying to teach someone a jump spinning heel kick or a sweeping hip throw.

MMA ring fighters don't want to spend 10 years honing techniques: they just want to get in that ring and kick some booty, neh?

So I think their choices are good. And I have no doubt a 2-year MMA student has an advantage over a 2-year TMA student.

But you know who is scarier to me than Chuck Liddell, Matt Hughes or Rich Franklin?

Those old-school hard core Korean grandmasters.

As a black belt, I can see lower ranked belts coming from a mile away when they decide to throw a technique. I actually have to wait sometimes for them to fully commit before countering.

And those grandmasters can see US coming from two miles away.

Props to you young Turks who want to get in the ring right away and prove something to yourself about yourself. I'm not knocking what you are doing since that's what you want to do.

But a guy like me, nearly 40? Injuries take too long to heal. I've played hardball, and it was fun. But now I want to be able to take care of myself when I'm 60.

No thanks: no Muay Thai in my MA; I prefer Korean kicking just fine.

No thanks: no BJJ in my MA; I prefer to get my Judo via Hapkido instead of Brazil.

But thanks for offering. (raises a toast of pure bourbon, neat) Cheers!

Thanks for sticking to the topic, I really appreciate it.

 

[cfr]

I never assume a MMA'ist can't fight on the street, although I do wonder if those who tape their wrists, for example, (both MMA *and* TMA) aren't setting themselves up for a nasty surprise when they strike someone with an untaped wrist, for example.

Agreed. I've recently started training open handed for this very reason.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

All, please take my questions for exactly what they say, not what you think the deeper meaning may have been. I have no desire for another "TMA vs MMA", "my style is better than your style", "here is why I won't do TMA or MMA", etc. type of thread. I am really curious as to who else attempts to integrate both schools of thought.

I misunderstood then. My apologies and I'll reply a bit more in the vein of what I now understand the topic to be

 

[Andy Moynihan]

To give you one example of something I'm gonna try out now that I've been studying the basic movement of it for a few months now:

One way TMAs practice, say, a defense against a punch is to slowly go thru the motions with a compliant partner, which is often criticized for not being "alive" but DOES burn the muscle memory in to the nevous system

One way MMAists do it is to simply get gloves on and spar right away, which will produce faster results but maybe a more limited array of responses( that's not by itself a bad thing but for those who like more, there should be a way to get it)

What I will do is this:

Continue practicing the movement till its burned in, and then at this point have my friend throw gloves on and tell him" Ok--we did this warming up with you just punching and staying there, now this time SMACK ME". If I flub the defense at full speed with intent, I get whacked. This will likely happen a few times at first.that's OK. Then we progress to us both moving around and him throwing the right, then we progress to him mixing it up with jabs that I must deal with while hoping to capitalize on the right whenever it does come, not always at the same time.

Repeat until you've burned in ALL your defenses/combos and now you've got those AND the idea of being hit by a resisting iopponent and what it will feel like.

 

[Rook]

Sorry, but I have to disagree -- and can't just let this go.

Muay Thai and BJJ are not "mixed martial arts." They are just two TMA that the majority of MMA'ist consider to be appropriate ingredients for their "mix."

This argument is as silly as the people who think that Long Island Iced Teas will get you super drunk because it has 10 types of liquor in it.

Well, the truth is, if you drink a tall glass of ANY liquor (providing it's not watered down) it is going to get you drunk.

You may like the flavor of a Long Island Iced Tea better than the same glass filled with straight bourbon -- but the alcohol content is the same.

Moreover, because you aren't sticking a splash of soda in it, the tall glass of bourbon may be even STRONGER as it hasn't been diluted with any soda.

MMA artists sometimes remind of this girlfriend I had that liked the sandwhich from Burger King but like McDonald's fries and then had to go to Dairy Queen for a desert.

If that's what it takes to make you happy, and you are getting what you want: great for you! But don't think I can't get everything I want from Steak 'n Shake -- because I CAN and DO.

Likewise, I don't mix my martial arts because the dojang where I train is giving me everything I want and think I need.

What we are ussually discussing with regards to self defense etc. is not so much whether someone is confident in what they have but what is most effective out of available options.

Of course, some might argue that hapkido IS a pre-packaged mixed martial art, so that might explain it

MMA has a very specific definition. Not all mixtures of multiple arts are considered MMA. MMA vs. TMA is NOT the same as crosstraining vs. one art either. It is rather the assertion that a certain mix of skills, principles, techniques and practices are the optimal mode of unarmed hand to hand fighting we are aware of. The challenges made by the Gracies, the Chute-box Academy, and many others are still open to anyone who thinks they can prove them wrong.

Maybe I'm just lucky in that I found a "one stop shop" dojang to work out in.

You like what you do. So do I. I don't believe, however, that what I do is more effective that what competent MMA practitioners do.

I never assume a MMA'ist can't fight on the street, although I do wonder if those who tape their wrists, for example, (both MMA *and* TMA) aren't setting themselves up for a nasty surprise when they strike someone with an untaped wrist, for example.

I know someone with no martial arts training whatsoever who broke all four finger bones in each hand in a fight, finished his fight, explained himself to the police, went home and went to bed and didn't realize he had eight broken bones until the next morning when he realized his hands were really sore and really black and blue and decided to go to the hospital to have them looked at. I doubt very much that solid MMA fighters would be much more fazed if they broke their hand on the street than in the ring. (Note: quite a few tournaments have been held barehanded and breaking the hands seems to be alot less common than some would assert.)

It all comes down to who is training hard and well. Heck, even within a single school, you can find some who are scary-effective and others who can't fight their way out of a paper bag.

This is the issue though - can the ones who seem effective in any particular school stack up favorably against those with different training practices? I realize it is politically correct in the martial arts to say a wing chun guy, a judo guy, a tkd guy, an MMA guy etc are all equally effective, its just the differences in the amount of practices that keeps them apart... I really don't think so. By now, one of the TMA guys that practices just as hard would have started winning fights against solid MMAists. It hasn't happened yet.

Final two cents on this:

I think BJJ and Muay Thai are the preferred ingredients for MMA because you can get useable technique in a relatively short time.

How long does it take to teach someone to lift their knee for a strike? Swing an elbow? How many repetitions does it take to make them effective?

How long does it take to teach the guard position? A scoop throw?

An interesting idea. However, Muay Thai is one of the simplest arts in the world, and BJJ one of, if not THE most complex. I don't think it is the complexity or lack thereof that makes them work.

Compare that with trying to teach someone a jump spinning heel kick or a sweeping hip throw.

The nuances of ground work are very complicated. The competitive MMA guys know a wide variety of submissions and chained techniques and conversions that get lost on the ground if you don't know what you're looking for. Its like a chess game down there.

MMA ring fighters don't want to spend 10 years honing techniques: they just want to get in that ring and kick some booty, neh?

So I think their choices are good. And I have no doubt a 2-year MMA student has an advantage over a 2-year TMA student.

But you know who is scarier to me than Chuck Liddell, Matt Hughes or Rich Franklin?

Those old-school hard core Korean grandmasters.

As much as I get tired of saying it, and as much as most of us are probably tired of hearing it, they should go beat Liddell, Hughes, or some other ranked fighter. It would totally change the outlook of a great many people, both traditionalists and modern fighters, on the Korean arts.

As a black belt, I can see lower ranked belts coming from a mile away when they decide to throw a technique. I actually have to wait sometimes for them to fully commit before countering.

And those grandmasters can see US coming from two miles away.

Props to you young Turks who want to get in the ring right away and prove something to yourself about yourself. I'm not knocking what you are doing since that's what you want to do.

But a guy like me, nearly 40? Injuries take too long to heal. I've played hardball, and it was fun. But now I want to be able to take care of myself when I'm 60.

No thanks: no Muay Thai in my MA; I prefer Korean kicking just fine.

No thanks: no BJJ in my MA; I prefer to get my Judo via Hapkido instead of Brazil.

But thanks for offering. (raises a toast of pure bourbon, neat) Cheers!

Ok.

 

[Rook]

All, please take my questions for exactly what they say, not what you think the deeper meaning may have been. I have no desire for another "TMA vs MMA", "my style is better than your style", "here is why I won't do TMA or MMA", etc. type of thread. I am really curious as to who else attempts to integrate both schools of thought.

Actually, the school I'm at now does try. I think we would be more capable if we moved more towards the MMA end of the spectrum.

 

[tradrockrat]

All, please take my questions for exactly what they say, not what you think the deeper meaning may have been. I have no desire for another "TMA vs MMA", "my style is better than your style", "here is why I won't do TMA or MMA", etc. type of thread. I am really curious as to who else attempts to integrate both schools of thought.

Bando as taught in the ABA has been trying (and succeeding IMHO) in this very endeavor for 80 + years now. Since the end of WWI when Bando was "recconstituted" (making it a MMA in some peoples eyes) by taking the most effective techniques from other arts in order to fill in gaps left over from the colonial suppression of the idiginous arts, to the rapid incorporation of western style boxing into our version of Lethwei in the 60's - we have strived to create that happy medium of a practical combat art that retains our fundamental philosophies and concepts of a 2000 year old tradition.

Do I consider Bando a TMA? Of course I do. I love the forms, philosophy and techniques.

Do we train live and use training techniques commonly found in MMA? Of course we do. I loved to kickbox, spar and wrestle in class.

Do we have specific strategies and concepts related to self defense over Traditional training? Of course we do. I learned to shoot, find out about local laws, group tactics, weapon disarms, etc.

Why? Because it's a no brainer. Sport, Art and Combat are three different things and you need to train for them threee different ways - again IMHO.

 

[pstarr]

Haven't we been here before?

 

[Rook]

Haven't we been here before?

Yes, yes we have. We will probably be here a few more times to come as well.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Haven't we been here before?

Can you say "beating a dead horse"

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Well, besides the fact this isn't the line of conversation cfr wanted, I just, like I said before for the reasons i did, can't for the life of me see why it's this monumental issue.


I been hearin that word "obsolete" most all my life, and they still dig holes with shovels...:idunno:

 

[cfr]

I've never seen this question posted before. Perhaps Ive just missed it? Could someone provide a link? Seriously, if Im beating a dead horse here my apologies. We've all seen the TMA vs. MMA, but I dont think I've ever seen a post attempting to merge the two.

Nor do I think it's a monumental issue. Why post anything? People put much worse posts than this on these boards.

Why are people so touchy when they percieve there style as being questioned?

 

[matt.m]

Quote:
Compare that with trying to teach someone a jump spinning heel kick

And is almost completely irrelevant to fighting...

Ok, while trying to stay on topic and not choose sides here. But to say that teaching someone a jump spinning heel kick is irrelevant to fighting is as ridiculous as saying the following "Compare that with trying to teach someone a double leg dump is irrelevant to fighting."

Sorry, every single technique one learns is applicable while in a fight. This is true 100 percent of the time, considering there is not a best technique to use.

After all, a show of hands please.....how many people have ever been in an entanglement that went past the old black eye puffy lip kind of stage.

I have done hand to hand combat on foreign soil when those that attacked me wished serious bodily harm on me. The nutty korean stuff worked pretty good for me there. The NATO baton that was issued worked masterfully for a cane.

On the flip side I have 23 gold medals from judo randori and 18 from greco wrestling while serving. In every instance of all "Real" fights I have ever been in I wanted the other person away from me as much as possible so I assure you I didn't open up with a right cross, left uppercut into a double leg dump combo.

Now, I do believe a happy medium can be maintained because I see MMA as a sport, after all that is what it is. It is competitive "combat or fighting" with a set of rules.