Training like this? Really?!

[granfire]

Apparently there was a national meeting in Florida of all the higher XXXXXX folks, and they're making some sweeping changes. We were told that as of the next cycle (April), XXXXX is going to 1 Form only all the way up to 4th degree Black. It has a total of 39 moves, and the students will learn 5-7 new moves for each advancement in rank. All competitions will consist of people performing this same form.

I took the name out to protect the embarrassed...

I think they could really save themselves a lot of trouble by just selling the belts for 1500 bucks, or 2 and be done with all that pesky training.

A while back they implemented half forms for the juniors and I kidded they were going the way of charging more for less teaching. Never in my wildest dreams would I have expected something like this.

I am sure in the time you spend to get to 4th dan, you will be proficient in the first moves of said 'form'

(and for the life of me, I can't see how any school owner can stick with that crap, unless they are locked into a a longterm contract!)

And there, you thought USAT was bad....

 

[sfs982000]

Wow!! So is XXXXXX the name of the school or the actual organization? I think you're right a person is better off going out and just buying themselves a black belt from a store then actually paying to train there. Seriously where is advancement there.

 

[Flying Crane]

the lazy and the greedy.

 

[granfire]

the organization.

It went from an alliance to a franchise system a few years back. since then all hell broke lose, new changes almost every year, non really good.

I mean, the changes to the forms were not too bad. The official reason was to be able to perform them in a smaller area. The cynics said it was to be able to copyright them and put the thumb screws to the school owners.

Then they implemented some additional disciplines, non TKD stuff, then they hit the schools with fees for that.
Then they went in with the BJJ crowd, then cut ties with the original guys there (and kept a watered down version)

It was never a hard hitting gig - which I did not mind, I have obligations I can't fulfill when laid up with injuries from playing MA, but this is really going too far!

They had ground fighting, but the exercises were strictly divided by gender, so the ladies always worked with each other, and the gents.
Though I have been told that a lot of crazy comes in small packages, it does not help a person to only train with lightweights....

More money, less content.

(along with a lot of other crap....)

 

[sfs982000]

I can understand in a sense breaking a form down for kids, but having one 39 movement form for beginner to 4th Dan and only learning a segment per rank is ridiculous. The BJJ or even Krav Maga for that matter seems to be fairly common place for alot of TKD schools that I've seen lately and again I don't have a problem with that as long as it's quality training.

 

[stkdh]

I was debating whether to repost this on another forum but granfire beat me to it
I'm looking forward to the responses to this one

 

[Kong Soo Do]

We were told that as of the next cycle (April), XXXXX is going to 1 Form only all the way up to 4th degree Black. It has a total of 39 moves, and the students will learn 5-7 new moves for each advancement in rank.

I don't know which organization is being referred to in the OP, nor do I know the quality of the one form that is being taught. However, just to throw this out there (and I've mentioned this several times in the JMA area), Uechi Kanbun Sensei learned only three forms while studying in the Shaolin temple in the Fukein providence of China. They were Sanchin, Seisan and Sanseiryu. It took him ten years to master these three kata. Back in Okinawa it is said that no one followed his demonstration of Sanseiryu at a town festival due to his power, skill and expertise. Later in life he was quoted as saying that to 'know karate one had only to study Sanseiryu' and that it would be enough to last someone a lifetime of study. Sanchin was a conditioning kata mainly. So the other two were the bulk of Pangainoon's system with Sanseiryu, in his opinion being all that was necessary for mastery of the system and a lifetime of study.

I'm not suggesting this organization/art has a form the same caliber of Sanseiryu, but I am saying that the value of an art is not dependent upon the number of forms that it teaches. In this area quality is vastly superior to quantity. YMMV

 

[wushuguy]

I think that it isn't the number of forms that is at question here, but perhaps what is being taught at each level. For example, in the TKD school I used to work at, they taught parts of palgwe 1, from white to orange. However, there is little to no explanation of the form, and hardly any correction, and the head master always complains if he has to do "too much work" or if he has to explain more than saying "do like this". If the form were taught in parts, but the explanation and the form was perfected, and the students understanding was high, then maybe it's worth it. But in most big commercial schools where contracts and costly monthly testing fees are present, I wouldn't think they are getting the full education.

In Wing Chun, we only have 3 empty hand forms... we learn the whole Sil Lim Tao first, because that's the foundation, and even after learning the other forms, we can spend maybe 80-90% of training on Sil Lim Tao level. But I wouldn't want/need tons of forms to get what I gain even from that 1 form

 

[Twin Fist]

and people wonder why people laugh at the state of TKD these days....

 

[granfire]

I don't know which organization is being referred to in the OP, nor do I know the quality of the one form that is being taught. However, just to throw this out there (and I've mentioned this several times in the JMA area), Uechi Kanbun Sensei learned only three forms while studying in the Shaolin temple in the Fukein providence of China. They were Sanchin, Seisan and Sanseiryu. It took him ten years to master these three kata. Back in Okinawa it is said that no one followed his demonstration of Sanseiryu at a town festival due to his power, skill and expertise. Later in life he was quoted as saying that to 'know karate one had only to study Sanseiryu' and that it would be enough to last someone a lifetime of study. Sanchin was a conditioning kata mainly. So the other two were the bulk of Pangainoon's system with Sanseiryu, in his opinion being all that was necessary for mastery of the system and a lifetime of study.

I'm not suggesting this organization/art has a form the same caliber of Sanseiryu, but I am saying that the value of an art is not dependent upon the number of forms that it teaches. In this area quality is vastly superior to quantity. YMMV

Yes, I obscured the organization, a little, on purpose.

I can see your point and the philosophy behind it. However I don't think the depth can be found in a purely US organization. The mindset is missing.

In the past I have been told, long before I started, they had 2 forms for each level to perform at grading.
I did not mind having to deal with just one, though back in the day I did perform all of them at one test to qualify for trainee instructor, and later relearned all of them, 7 or 8 at the time when they changed them all to their own material.
The forms, hyong style, all build on each other, many moves are just repetitions, performed in the other direction. With each you got under your belt (no pun intended) the next actually became easier.

The kids felt insulted when they were only taught the half a form.
I can see an adult concentrating on just 7 moves for each cycle, but kids? No way, no how!
Most of them will never put the effort into a form, regardless of length, and once they 'know' the moves, they get bored - and most often sloppy.


I feel really sorry for those students: doing the exact same stuff for 2-3 years...3 times a week...It's not like the new forms were hard to learn. One I had down pat in 2 days. But we all know how it ends when we start over form the beginning over an over....

I am basically floored.

 

[Manny]

My two mexican cents here. I think/feel that TKD has many forms and some are useless, as Kong Soo Do wrote I would rather be very good in two or three forms/katas/pommsae than mediocre performing 8 for example. One poomsae per colored belt is enough, in fact for me maybe no more than forms would be aught at kup level and maybe 3 more at yudansa level.

We don't need to learn for example 1 to 8 taeguk and then koryo,kungam,taebek to become a nice 3er or 4th dan black belt.

Manny

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Yes, I obscured the organization, a little, on purpose.

I can see your point and the philosophy behind it. However I don't think the depth can be found in a purely US organization. The mindset is missing.

In the past I have been told, long before I started, they had 2 forms for each level to perform at grading.
I did not mind having to deal with just one, though back in the day I did perform all of them at one test to qualify for trainee instructor, and later relearned all of them, 7 or 8 at the time when they changed them all to their own material.
The forms, hyong style, all build on each other, many moves are just repetitions, performed in the other direction. With each you got under your belt (no pun intended) the next actually became easier.

The kids felt insulted when they were only taught the half a form.
I can see an adult concentrating on just 7 moves for each cycle, but kids? No way, no how!
Most of them will never put the effort into a form, regardless of length, and once they 'know' the moves, they get bored - and most often sloppy.


I feel really sorry for those students: doing the exact same stuff for 2-3 years...3 times a week...It's not like the new forms were hard to learn. One I had down pat in 2 days. But we all know how it ends when we start over form the beginning over an over....

I am basically floored.

I fully understand what you're saying. Not knowing what the form contains, or how it is taught puts me in a position of not being able to judge or comment on it specifically. If I can further the example in my previous post, MSK Kong Soo Do only has one form. That doesn't mean that others can't be learned, and indeed I know multiple forms. But I teach only one; Mu Shin. This form is broken down into five smaller segments. For practitioners that are use to learning a myriad of forms to progress into the Dan ranks, one form can seem insufficient. I can understand that perspective. However, one would need to know what that one (or two or three) form(s) offer by way of comparision. After just the first and second segment of the Mu Shin form, the MSK KSD practitioner has gained quite a bit of experience in CQC gross motor skill strikes, interceptions, balance displacement, ground combatives, cavity pressing, misplacing the bone & tendon, chokes, throws, locks and grappling An amazing amount of informations, principles and conclusions are located in just one segment of the Mu Shin form.

Now please keep what I'm saying in perspective. I'm not saying the Mu Shin form is better than what anyone else is doing. But I am saying that it has provided everything we've needed for many years and more importantly to me as an instructor, I can tailor it to the needs of the individual student.

Just offering something for consideration. Again, not saying that this is the approach the OP organization has taken.

 

[Haakon]

Has this information been posted officially online anywhere? I'm really curious about which organization it is, for TKD to go from 20+ forms down to 1 fairly short (39 move?) pattern is a massive change.

 

[granfire]

Has this information been posted officially online anywhere? I'm really curious about which organization it is, for TKD to go from 20+ forms down to 1 fairly short (39 move?) pattern is a massive change.

I don't think it's 'officially' posted anywhere.
It was a question posted by a parent. Over all the organization has a history of sorts of, how shall I say it, confusing communication. Much is done via email, but not necessarily binding.
I don't think there is an official note on the net (not alone because they are notorious for a really bad website...)

 

[dancingalone]

Many taekwondo curricula don't have forms as the basis of the system anyway. They emphasize sparring and basics instead. Hypothetically speaking, I don't see it as too big of a deal to further de-emphasize the importance of hyung, if we're talking about one of those styles.

 

[stkdh]

All valid points here but I can not see that the org. in question will measure up to these standards.

The org. has watered down their curriculum again and again over the past couple of decents, removing forms, reducing the amount of sparring (to making it an option lmfao), breaking easier boards, putting prices up and up, putting price tags on half learnt systems and making them seem full and charging the earth.......I could go on but haven't got all day lol

The term taekwondo is loosely used in their clubs/academies their group has even changed their name to remove TKD and have martial arts, so I suppose they could teach whatever they want and put a stamp on it.

I wouldn't call their "TKD" system as a full one, bit like their other martial arts they "teach"

PS don't get me wrong I know this org. quite well and there are some outstanding martial artist that are members, but their talents are being soooo wasted.

 

[punisher73]

This has always been an argument in traditional arts. How many kata are actually needed? If you read back through the okinawan systems most of the time a kata was considered a complete fighting system, and a student would master that one kata and maybe learn 1 or 2 others to supplement it. Wing Chun has 3 forms that are heavily concept based and not application based so the amount of info coded into it is HUGE. Uechi had 3 forms and then created other bridging forms to help learn those 3 foundational forms. Other styles have WAY too many forms/katas that someone couldn't master them all, and that isn't the point it is to give students a wide base to choose from to fit their own personal style. In the IKCA kenpo system, they only have 1 form called a "master form" that you add techniques to at each belt level until you have 55 techniques (not moves).

That being said, 39 moves is not long at all if they count a block/punch/kick as 3 moves and that doesn't even take into account that there probably are quite a few key concepts missing from the system at such a small amount of moves.

 

[granfire]

All valid points here but I can not see that the org. in question will measure up to these standards.

The org. has watered down their curriculum again and again over the past couple of decents, removing forms, reducing the amount of sparring (to making it an option lmfao), breaking easier boards, putting prices up and up, putting price tags on half learnt systems and making them seem full and charging the earth.......I could go on but haven't got all day lol

The term taekwondo is loosely used in their clubs/academies their group has even changed their name to remove TKD and have martial arts, so I suppose they could teach whatever they want and put a stamp on it.

I wouldn't call their "TKD" system as a full one, bit like their other martial arts they "teach"

PS don't get me wrong I know this org. quite well and there are some outstanding martial artist that are members, but their talents are being soooo wasted.

Yes, you formulated it nicely, Thank you!

 

[vikings827]

I am fairly certain as to which organization you are calling out. My 2 cents...... in all businesses, profit is at the forefront. There will always be a market for students, and families willing to pay for this environment. If the TKD being taught is from high quality instructors, like mine, why should portions of a form, or $$$ be a matter? I will tell you, all businesses will raise the price of their services until buyers stay away. Market forces are always at work in everything we "purchase". And, yes, this includes taekwondo lessons. 35 years ago, when I started TKD, it cost me $5.00 every 3 months. Now it is much more than that. My instructors and master now are much better than then. But, not in a ratio of $5.00 to $1500.00

 

[Haakon]

I was wondering if there has been any more information about this sent out? Are they still going with just one form, any examples of what the form contains? It doesn't impact me, but I'm really curious and if the form is any good maybe I'll learn it just for fun.