Neck cranks

[skribs]

I'm getting frustrated with some of the bigger white belts at my gym. They get on top, either half guard, side control, or mount, and they just hug the head and squeeze. No technique, just trying to pop my head like a melon. It hurts like hell, it's incredibly uncomfortable, and I'm stuck. But I can breathe, my brain is still getting blood, so I try and ride it out or fight out of it. Was on the receiving end of one of these a few days ago, and I'm just now regaining the ability to turn my head without my neck hurting like hell.

As someone who is just reaching the upper 30s and upper blue belts, I am looking for advice on how to handle these. (Aside from "don't let them grab your head").

1. Is there something I can do once they latch around the head to escape?
2. Should I just tap?
3. Should I provide feedback, "that was more of a crank", or just move on and try not to get in that position again in the first place?

I'm torn between the advice that you should tap to a choke when you feel the choke on, and tap to a choke because "everything below the eyes is neck".

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

they just hug the head and squeeze. No technique, just trying to pop my head like a melon. It hurts like hell, it's incredibly uncomfortable, and I'm stuck.

Does the term "technique" mean to make your opponent to feel pain?

- A punch on the head cause pain.
- A kick on the chest cause pain.
- A lock on the elbow cause pain.
- A throw on the ground cause pain.

Head lock has 3 contact areas.

1. neck.
2. jaw.
3. temple.

The pain can be 1 < 2 < 3.

1. Should I just tap?

You should just tap out and start another game.

 

[Flying Crane]

I’m not a grappler so maybe my opinion doesn’t mean much here. On the other hand, maybe the insight of an outsider can hit straight to the mark.

Neck injuries are potentially highly dangerous and can lead to permanent and devastating injuries. If you find yourself in that position, tap. End it. Don’t take the risk. It isnt worth it. The fact that you are left with significant neck pain for days afterwards tells you all that you need to know.

These white belts may be inexperienced enough that they simply do not realize how dangerous these techniques are or how roughly they are applying them. Or how quickly they can become dangerous with just a little extra pressure or a little extra twist. The instructional staff needs to be made aware of the issue and needs to address it. There is nothing wrong with discussing the technique and acknowledging how effective it can be, appropriate for a life-and-death situation, but not for competition or routine rolling while training. They need to stop doing this before someone is seriously injured. It sounds to me like these white belts are trying to “win” the rolling session instead of learn from it, and they are willing to win at any cost. The instructional staff needs to step in and clarify some training rules. If they won’t do so and if the white belts won’t take guidance from you as their training partner, refuse to train with them. If they find themselves without partners willing to train with them, they will either get the message or stop showing up. Hopefully it’s the former and not the latter.

 

[Simfers]

I agree that the staff needs to be made aware if you're getting neck pains for days afterwards. Also giving the white belts feedback is a good idea, as they may just not know any better and be panicking, then holding on for dear life, when they feel they've established a modicum of control.

Now, I'm just a blue belt myself, and less experienced than you, but as I read I had the following techniques pop in my head:

1. From bottom side control or half-guard, you need to establish your far/top arm frame against their neck. That will give you space to work. Of course, turn to your side facing them.

2. From bottom mount, if I'm reading you correctly, they're basically giving you the trap and roll escape. Even if they adjust, they'll need to give you some space.

3. If all else fails, tapping is the ultimate escape. End of the day, we all need to work in the morning and it's just a hobby.

Looking forward to reading other opinions from more knowledgeable people!

 

[Badhabits]

I'd say if you can't get out just tap. Then try explaining they're not winning due to skill, just brute strength. They need to learn, and your explaining this may help them, that brute strength is just a poor substitute for good technique. Tell them if they're having to use a bunch of muscle they're doing it wrong. My old submission wrestling instructor used to grind this into our heads. All that strength won't mean squat against someone much better than them. If they're really trying to learn and get better they'll take it to heart. If they're jerks, well, it may someone capable of easily manhandling them with skill to get the point across

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

brute strength is just a poor substitute for good technique.

But technique has 2 parts:

- skill (speed, timing, angle, opportunity),
- ability (force, balance).

Ability is the 50% of a proper technique. There is nothing wrong about using "ability (force)".

When you take down your opponent like this, head squeeze is a natural follow up ground game.

 

[Badhabits]

But technique has 2 parts:

- skill (speed, timing, angle, opportunity),
- ability (force, balance).

Ability is the 50% of a proper technique. There is nothing wrong about using "ability (force)".

When you take down your opponent like this, head squeeze is a natural follow up ground game.

We may be thinking of force/strength in different terms. If someone is trying to crank your neck but suck at it, that person may try to use brute force to squeeze- when they should be using leverage. I can wrap my arm around a person's head and squeeze hard and hang on, it's one thing if that's what I'm trying to do, but if I'm going for a neck crank then I'm doing it wrong. I guess I'm just saying there are better ways to create/apply force than just using brute strength alone. It's sounds like Skribs is saying these guys aren't understanding the technique, so are using muscle as a sort of patch to make up for it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

that person may try to use brute force to squeeze ... but if I'm going for a neck crank then I'm doing it wrong.

Old MA saying said, "一力降十会 "A strong man can defeat ten skilled martial artists."

By using "neck crank", what do you intend to achieve? To choke him out? How do you crank your opponent's neck on the ground? What leverage are you talking about? I can see in stand-up game, you can twist your opponent's head and cause pressure on his neck. But while your opponent's head is on the ground, I just don't know how you can "crank" his neck.

What's the difference between "neck crank" and "head squeeze"? How do you know if your opponent is trying to do "neck crank" and not "head squeeze"? When your opponent locks your head, he may try to squeeze your temple or your jaw. He may not interest in cranking your neck at all.

By using head squeeze, you may force your opponent to tap out within 3 seconds. By using "neck crank", not sure how long it will take to make that effective. I just don't believe "neck crank" can be more effective than "head squeeze" in ground game.

 

[Badhabits]

Old MA saying said, "一力降十会 "A strong man can defeat ten skilled martial artists."

By using "neck crank", what do you intend to achieve? To choke him out? How do you crank your opponent's neck on the ground? What leverage are you talking about? I can see in stand-up game, you can twist your opponent's head and cause pressure on his neck. But while your opponent's head is on the ground, I just don't know how you can "crank" his neck.

What's the difference between "neck crank" and "head squeeze"? How do you know if your opponent is trying to do "neck crank" and not "head squeeze"? When your opponent locks your head, he may try to squeeze your temple or your jaw. He may not interest in cranking your neck at all.

By using head squeeze, you may force your opponent to tap out within 3 seconds. By using "neck crank", not sure how long it will take to make that effective. I just don't believe "neck crank" can be more effective than "head squeeze" in ground game.

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Lol my brain feels like the guy in your picture right now. I worked with neck cranks mostly as a way to cause pain for a tap out in a sport setting, more there than in karate. Leverage wise, I can't really explain well. I can do neck cranks standing or on the ground and make them work, but I'm not good at explaining. Best I can do is say you're twisting or pulling on the spine in the neck by manipulating the head while the shoulders go a different way. Probably not a good explanation. Head squeeze I can't speak for, it's not something I've really worked with other than having one fist in the other and squeezing to drive a knuckle into the temple. If it'll work better than a good neck crank though, it must be a nice technique, as a proper neck crank is miserable to get caught in! Well now I wanna learn more about the head squeeze.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I worked with neck cranks mostly as a way to cause pain for a tap out in a sport setting,

If to cause pain is your goal for "neck crank", I believe "head squeeze" can cause more pain than "neck crank" can.

In stand-up game, if you can put your opponent's head on your chest, you can create enough twisting on his neck (if you can point your elbow down to the ground). On the ground, I find this can be hard to achieve. This is why in the ground game, I believe "head squeeze" is more effective than then "neck crank".

As far as counter, I know this work in the stand-up game. Not sure it will work in the ground game or not. When your opponent is on the ground, his body structure and the ground are connected. Your opponent's body structure on the ground is stronger than his body structure when standing up.

 

[drop bear]

You can frame and push their nose off to avoid it. But I tap to that mostly if it is on. And I recognise pulling, which I don't have to tap to, but will get a sore neck if I don't.

So. Half guard. Their head is near mine and they are wrapped up.

I reach across with my hand, grab the middle of their face and push up. Then reach with my other hand and swap it out. Kind of climing their face backwards untill I have space to get the underhook.

They shouldn't be able to squeeze your head if you have the underhook.

You should also be able to upa sweep them because their arms are not basing.

 

[drop bear]

I'd say if you can't get out just tap. Then try explaining they're not winning due to skill, just brute strength. They need to learn, and your explaining this may help them, that brute strength is just a poor substitute for good technique. Tell them if they're having to use a bunch of muscle they're doing it wrong. My old submission wrestling instructor used to grind this into our heads. All that strength won't mean squat against someone much better than them. If they're really trying to learn and get better they'll take it to heart. If they're jerks, well, it may someone capable of easily manhandling them with skill to get the point across

No. Tap and shut up. At most tell them you have an injury.

 

[drop bear]

Ok. So this isn't the upa sweep. But it should be close enough for you to get the idea.

And they generally have to be pretty crap to pull this off.

But you see the bridge. If you cover his knee you can roll him over. And you sort of trap his hand with your head.

 

[drop bear]

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

No. Tap and shut up. At most tell them you have an injury.

Is punching allowed in the BJJ ground game? I always think the stand-up wrestling without kick/punch is unrealistic. If the stand-up wrestling should train with fist flying, should the ground grappling also train with fist flying?

 

[drop bear]

Is punching allowed in the BJJ ground game? I always think the stand-up wrestling without kick/punch is unrealistic. If the stand-up wrestling should train with fist flying, should the ground grappling also train with fist flying?

No. Punching is no allowed

 

[Fungus]

I always think the stand-up wrestling without kick/punch is unrealistic.

Probably about as unrealistic as that fact that we are not allowed to throws in karate.

But once everything is allowed it all gets mma.

I remember as a kid when i did greco-roman wrestling that I found it to be weird that leg attacks or hooks wasnt allowed, as i kept seeing all the openings but wasnt allowed to exploit. Greco-roman wrestling exclusively about lifting your opponent to make them loose ground contact and then throw using upper body and hip throws.

Similarly when someone pushes me close range in kyokushin, i sometimes feel golden openings for various throws, but now that's not allowed. A harsh throw into the ground can be a pretty significant blow to the opponent and would deter from from getting in too close!

But I think the hard throws we did in wrestling would be risky for my back. I am not at what ages those doing that keeps up with it?

 

[skribs]

But once everything is allowed it all gets mma.

Except I don't remember MMA matches where they're hitting people with chairs...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But I think the hard throws we did in wrestling would be risky for my back. I am not at what ages those doing that keeps up with it?

Muhammad Ali retired at age 36. After 36, our competition time is over. This is why we should spend as much time as possible to accumulate our fighting experience when we were still young.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Is punching allowed in the BJJ ground game? I always think the stand-up wrestling without kick/punch is unrealistic. If the stand-up wrestling should train with fist flying, should the ground grappling also train with fist flying?

No. Punching is no allowed

Let me clarify. Punching is not allowed under most BJJ sport competition rulesets. That's primarily because MMA became its own thing and became the primary sport outlet for people who wanted to fight in a context which allows striking along with ground grappling. (There are a few others, such as Kudo.)

However, both using and defending against with strikes are 100% part of the martial art of BJJ. My classes regularly have sparring sessions which include strikes on the ground and standing up. (I don't do that in every class, for reasons which are involved enough to deserve their own thread whenever I can get around to it.) But I prefer for my students to have at least the basics of defending strikes on the ground before I start going into depth on tournament tactics. Reason being, you can decide when you are going to compete in a tournament and schedule time to prep for those rules in advance. You can't know ahead of time when you are going to be jumped by a mugger and wait to learn street self-defense until a few months beforehand.

A few of you have seen the beginning of what I teach in that regard. @Monkey Turned Wolf , @JowGaWolf , @hoshin1600 , @J. Pickard , @Rich Parsons , @Bill Mattocks have seen me teach some fundamentals of how BJJ deals with strikes on the ground. (Just the first steps. It gets much more in depth.) If any of them want to comment with their perspective of what they've seen me show, that could be interesting.