TKD and TSD

[Kacey]

Possibly, but, I still say at least one of my criteria still fits in that ITF TKD does not practice the old Okinawan hyung (as far as I know).

I did not address that as I felt it was a valid differentiation.

Also, regarding the bunkai-less forms, I'm very interested in whether "figuring out applications to the form" has any formalized component in the ITF curriculum. My guess is that it either is not there or is not emphasized the way that most kata based systems in Japan and Okinawa emphasize them.

There is formal instruction of common bunkai in tuls; however, students are encouraged, and, at higher ranks, required, to find other applications that work for their personal needs (size, weight, reach, etc.). Having been out of the ITF for over 10 years (you'll notice I said background, not affiliation) I cannot say how things might have changed in the interim.

Lastly, I must admit, I don't have much experience with ITF TKD. Most (if not all) of what we have in my region is Olympic style. However, I've seen some sparring at a tournament and I watched a demonstration at a Dojang in the Twin Cities.

See previous comment.

From what I have seen, it doesn't look that different a lot of the other TKD out there. The sparring rules are similar and there is extensive use of the feet. The forms are different, but most practicioners still display the same misconceptions regarding forms that most KMAists have, and the grappling curriculum is limited to psuedo kata list of ho sin shul. Lastly, I felt that the same philosophic disconnect that is present in most kwan based when it comes to aspects of their curriculum was present.

ITF may be different in some ways, but to me, it's still obviously TKD.

I never said it wasn't; I merely differed with your statement of "almost all" TKD dojangs.

 

[zDom]

As far as I know, Park Yi-hyun was a close friend of Dr. Hee young Kim. I believe Park Yi-hyun came from Judo. Both Dr. Kim Hee-young and Park Yi-hyun gave a Hapkido and Judo demo at Delmar Stadium in 1970.

I suppose it is possible he later studied a kongsoo-do type art. But, I haven't heard about that. Lee Nam-sok stopped teaching in the 1960's. Later (around 1995) he came to the US and started teaching again. His emphasis from the 1960's until 1995 was promoting TKD, not instructing or training. So, I don't know how much he would have passed along instruction-wise. Even Lee Nam-sok didn't teach the original Changmoo-kwan curriculum when he started instructing in 1995 (he probably forgot most of it).

R. McLain

You are correct : ) Park and Kimm (and Shin, Bong Yul) we're all close friends, and all got their start in Judo.

Park eventually became most interested in hapkido, so I understand, but was also a very successful taekwondo instructor reaching high dan ranks in both before his passing while never progressing past 5th dan in judo (whereas Shin continued on to focus on judo and Kimm went on to found his own art).

I never got the impression Nam Suk Lee was TRAINING Park in TKD, but somewhere along the line — and I presume it may have had something to do with their friendship — MSK became associated with the Chang Moo Kwan. I believe its highest ranked masters receive certification through the CMK.

But what I am REALLY interested in at this point (and to bring it around to on-topic), is where Park began his training in taekwondo, as the TKD from Park seemed to have a lot of TSD influences/similarities.

I know where Park's hapkido comes from (Korean Musulkwan) but not his TKD.

Any idea where Kimm's TKD comes from? It wouldn't surprise me to hear that they both studied TKD at the same place.

And anybody have any observations regarding Kimm's TKD they would like to share? I wonder if it shows the same TSD-type similarities that MSK does.

 

[exile]

Exile you are doing the same TKD as me, TSD we are not because our GM calls it TKD and alot of folks call it opld school which would emply TSD. I for one know that I do TKD and not TSD but can conclude we do alot of the same techs. as TSD style schools out there, the sport is second and the Art is always first.

Old-school TKD? I like that, Terry! It makes it clear, yes, it's TKD, but our foundation, our base, isn't the way-diluted sport version. Sounds good to me!

 

[Makalakumu]

Yes, we're Song Moo Kwan!

I'm sure you've seen this, but I'd like to point it out...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_Moo_Kwan

Song Moo Kwan is "The Ever Youthful House Of Martial Arts Training." Originally named "Song Do Kwan" which was Korean for Shotokan. Rich in history and tradition, Song Moo Kwan one of the nine original Kwans of Taekwondo in Korea. Its founder, Taekwondo pioneer Supreme Grand Master Byung Jick Ro, is one of the highest ranking Black Belt in the world. Byung Jick Ro was born July 3, 1919 in Kaesung City, Korea. Frail health forced him to enter school a year later than the other children. At the age of twelve, his strong interest in the ancient martial arts was intensified as he witnessed the techniques practiced in the local temples. His youthful spirit drove him to train with intense dedication subsequently strengthening and improving his health. As a young man, Supreme Grand Master Ro traveled to Japan to attend Chou University. It was during this time that his passion for the martial arts led him to seek out Shotokan founder, Gichin Funakoshi. In May of 1936 he began training under Funakoshi, subsequently earning his black belt in Shotokan. During college vacations he returned home and taught friends and neighbors the techniques he had learned. In February of 1944 he returned to Korea, where he continued to create additional hand and foot techniques of his own. It is the combination of these techniques along with the ones he learned during his early years of training that helped in the formation of Kukkiwon Taekwondo.

Taekwondo Song Moo Kwan still exist today, but only as a fraternal social friendship club. The official training curriculum endorsed by Taekwondo Song Moo Kwan is the Kukkiwon curriculum. The current President of Taekwondo Song Moo Kwan is KANG, Won Shik. Song Moo Kwan as all Kwan, support the World Taekwondo Federation.

Like a lot of the kwan founders at the time, Byung Jik Ro learned shotokan as the base for his would be system. The fact that you still hold on to many of the old forms and basic techniques indicates that your style is probably more similar to TSD then TKD. SMK may have threw in its lot with TKD, but that doesn't mean that it is strictly TKD.

Now, as to what I've noticed with my experience with SMK. The powerline of the techniques, the way the hyung are performed, and the way they fit into the curriculum resembles TSD. Also, even though kicking is practiced extensively, it doesn't seem like they are treated as the end all be all for every situation as in 90% (or more) of training time is used to train them.

I'm very curious how SMK calls itself TKD? Is it just because you practice the palgwes?

 

[exile]

I'm sure you've seen this, but I'd like to point it out...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_Moo_Kwan



Like a lot of the kwan founders at the time, Byung Jik Ro learned shotokan as the base for his would be system. The fact that you still hold on to many of the old forms and basic techniques indicates that your style is probably more similar to TSD then TKD. SMK may have threw in its lot with TKD, but that doesn't mean that it is strictly TKD.

Now, as to what I've noticed with my experience with SMK. The powerline of the techniques, the way the hyung are performed, and the way they fit into the curriculum resembles TSD. Also, even though kicking is practiced extensively, it doesn't seem like they are treated as the end all be all for every situation as in 90% (or more) of training time is used to train them.

All of the above! This confirms something I've felt for a long time... we're a bit of an anomaly in TKD because, I gather, our overall `ancestral' approach is more like TSD's—certainly wrt the ide of self-defense apps, the much more `even' balance between hand and leg techs and the emphasis in the latter on the practical use of lower-mid to low kicks—and the value of the O/J kata in our ancestry—than current WTF TKD is.

I'm very curious how SMK calls itself TKD? Is it just because you practice the palgwes?

Well, it's right there in this bit, basically:

The official training curriculum endorsed by Taekwondo Song Moo Kwan is the Kukkiwon curriculum. The current President of Taekwondo Song Moo Kwan is KANG, Won Shik. Song Moo Kwan as all Kwan, support the World Taekwondo Federation.​

SMK is just a `shadow' kwan at this point in Korea—the main dojangs insisting on SMK identity appear to be in the US—and Byung Jik Ro himself, after signing on with the newly formed Korea Taekwondo Association, he became its fourth president in 1966 (though he appears to have held the job only for one years), and later on served in some advisory capacity as an official of the WTF. So basically, he played a certain role in the submergence of individual Kwan identity, and the SMK in Korea basically... well, my description, admittedly loaded, would be `self-destructed' for the `greater good [????] of the TKD community'. Essentially, he owned the store, and he sold it and agreed to the name change.

My instructor, Allen Shirley, was a brother student of Master Darrell Trudo, both of them students of Greg Fears and his teacher, Gm. Joon Pye Choi, one of Gm. Byung Jik Ro's later BBs. Master Trudo died earlier this year, to our great sorrow, from sickle cell anæmia, and Mr. Shirley now manages his network of dojangs, which are, like Mr. Shirley's himself, very self-consciously built around the early, autonomous SMK's approach to KMA, as you very succinctly and accurately summarized it. My fantasy is to see a revived, autonomous Kwan—one which is indeed the contempory embodiment of the old SMK from the pre-unification 1950s era—come into existence in North America....

:sadsong: ...dream on, dream on... :sadsong:

But this issue seems to me to raise a very important question that emerges from Terry's OP: what does `Taekwondo' actually denote—when we use it, are we talking about the content of a particular art, an art practiced under the administrative control of some organization which licenses the use of the term, or something else? If SMK is closer in content to TSD, but exists institutionally as a component of the WTF/KKW hierarchy of organizations, with only an historical-lineage existence at this point, how should it be described? More generally, because TKD and TSD are not just what the social theorists like to call `communities of practice', but are also corporate institutional bodies of considerable mass, what is it we're actually talking about when we ask the original question that Terry asked?....