The 540 kick

[Manny]

These are a little different from what I learned as a 540 degree kick. Let me give a small breakdown:
360 spin kick - Foot travels one full rotation, such as a spin kick where from a normal fighting stance, you make contact with the back foot, and it returns to the back foot position. 360 degree rotation.

450 spin kick - Foot travels 1 1/4 rotation, such as a spin kick where from a horse stance, you make contact with foot further from the initial spin rotation. 450 degree rotation.

540 spin kick - Foot travels 1 1/2 full rotation, such as a spin kick where from a normal fighting stance, you make contact with the lead foot, and it returns to the back foot position. 540 degree rotation.

When I started TKD back in '72, we were not required to do a 540. I first saw a 540 in Hapkido in '76. I never even heard of a 450 until I studied Do Hap Sool in '81. These are definitely special kicks and considered "fancy and or impractical" by many. Usually non-kickers, or older guys. Granted, these are for younger guys and do have a small window of realistic applications, but when used right, they are devastating. There is a lot of torque generated, and when applied right, the results are usually KO.

The step spin back kick and step spin kick are the basics for these kicks. Then we begin to add air...

One of my students has made several videos on youtube that show our version of spin kicks including the 360, 450 and 540. I think he used footage from our FMS demo dvd and FMS Jok Sul dvds. I don't know how to embed them but here are a couple of links.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3-jIed0IWs&feature=channel

At 3:50 you'll find our 540 spin back kick.
At 4:34 you'll find the 540 spin back kick over an object.
At 4:40 you begin to see the 360 spin kick and variations
At 4:53 you'll find the 450 spin kick
At 4:55 you'll find our version of the 540

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCWYUUJfuL0&feature=channel_video_title

In this clip you'll find applications for low kicks (ha che jok sul), combination kicks (pok sik jok sul) and spin kicks (tora jok sul). I believe there is a version for 540 towards the end.

Hope this adds to the conversation.
With respect and brotherhood,
Kuk Sa Nim

Master Alba, nice videos, and yes if one can do perfect spining/jumping kicks they can be lethal, it seems to me you have mastered this kicks.

It's true when you wrote: These are definitely special kicks and considered "fancy and or impractical" by many. Usually non-kickers, or older guys.

There are some guys like myself that never were so flexible or elastic to perform such kicks and now with age (I am 43) it's very dificult to achieve certain grade of masterity to perform this flanboyant kicks, sure these kicks are beautiful and amaizing and there are more suited for young people like kids and teens.

Doing sparring I am more confortable with at least one feet on the floor, so my kicks are basic but strong ones and yes when the time is right I like to send spining back kicks wich I think is one of the strongest kicks in TKD.

What kind of martial art you do, it seesm to me something like hap ki do with a mix of kung fu but not sure.

Thanx again for sharing with us.

Manny

 

[ATACX GYM]

It's extra, not core...something fun for the young and athletic to stretch themselves. Most of our teenage black belts play with it.

I just say it's part of the victory dance I'll do after I knock you out with something simple.

I saw a few guys use this technique in competition.It even got done several times in the green brwon and black belt divisions at the IKC here in LBC,CA from 2002 (IIRC) til now.

 

[puunui]

Color me clueless. Why does it matter how many times or how much you spin around on the ground?

It doesn't matter so much that it describes how much the kicking foot travels. So what we have, I think, are two schools. One (ATC, Kuk Sa Nim and myself) goes with how much the kicking foot travels. The other school (yours) goes with how much time you spend in the air. I don't think it is a matter of which is right and which is wrong so much that it goes to the terminology that we learned with regard to these kicks, which is why I brought it up in the first place. Someone says "540" and people visualize different kicks in their heads.

 

[puunui]

When I started TKD back in '72, we were not required to do a 540. I first saw a 540 in Hapkido in '76. I never even heard of a 450 until I studied Do Hap Sool in '81.

Both Daehan Hapkido and Sinmoo Hapkido has the 540 spin kick as well as the 450 spin kick. The 450 spin kick is used to the body. You start in a neutral stance, someone punches your face, you squat down and do a spin kick to the ribs of your opponent. Of course if you connect with that, you probably won't be doing the complete 450 spin, which is more of a paddle drill situation. Interestingly enough, I was never taught a regular 360 degree standing or jump spin hook kick in Hapkido, just the 540 and 450 spin hook kicks. the 360 degree spin hook kick was more of a Taekwondo kick.

 

[StudentCarl]

I saw a few guys use this technique in competition.It even got done several times in the green brwon and black belt divisions at the IKC here in LBC,CA from 2002 (IIRC) til now.

I've seen it too. Stripped down, it's just an aerialized step-forward into back or hook kick. For me to cover 540 degrees takes long enough that the refs could warn me for stalling, so I stick to the basics and win with footwork and deception. My 17 year old son can work the spin game with speed, and it's fun to watch. At 6'4, 165, and 17, when we spar and he launches, I have to tie up early or get out of town.

 

[Earl Weiss]

It doesn't matter so much that it describes how much the kicking foot travels. So what we have, I think, are two schools. One (ATC, Kuk Sa Nim and myself) goes with how much the kicking foot travels. The other school (yours) goes with how much time you spend in the air. I don't think it is a matter of which is right and which is wrong so much that it goes to the terminology that we learned with regard to these kicks, which is why I brought it up in the first place. Someone says "540" and people visualize different kicks in their heads.

Point taken.

 

[Kuk Sa Nim]

Master Alba, nice videos, and yes if one can do perfect spining/jumping kicks they can be lethal, it seems to me you have mastered this kicks.

It's true when you wrote: These are definitely special kicks and considered "fancy and or impractical" by many. Usually non-kickers, or older guys.

There are some guys like myself that never were so flexible or elastic to perform such kicks and now with age (I am 43) it's very dificult to achieve certain grade of masterity to perform this flanboyant kicks, sure these kicks are beautiful and amaizing and there are more suited for young people like kids and teens.

Doing sparring I am more confortable with at least one feet on the floor, so my kicks are basic but strong ones and yes when the time is right I like to send spining back kicks wich I think is one of the strongest kicks in TKD.

What kind of martial art you do, it seesm to me something like hap ki do with a mix of kung fu but not sure.

Thanx again for sharing with us.

Manny

Thank you very much Sir. Yes, these type of kicks are best suited for the younger guys, and I too find myself sticking to more basic kicks when sparring. And I also still have a great spin back kick that I can time pretty dangerously. But as far as the more fancy kicks, I keep them for fun and for show.

All of this footage was shot while in my late 30's and 40's, and believe it or not, with terrible injuries to both knees. Doctors here in SF told me to discontinue martial arts, and DEFINITELY no kicking." Those days are over" they told me. Well, that didn't sit well with me, and I guess I showed them.

As far as what type of martial art we do, it is called Modern Farang Mu Sul. It combines several Korean arts that I studied such as several versions of Hapkido, Tae Kwon Do, Kuk Sool Won, Do Hap Sool and Sun Mu Won, but it's main roots are in a couple versions of Hwarang Do (aka: Farang Kwan) that I studied. The idea was to have a very comprehensive art that is powerful, simple and yet very effective. Kind of a "Korean JKD". We try to exemplify the "Umm-Yang" philosophy. The art contains a wide variety of hand strikes (open and closed hands), LOTS of kicks, joint locks, throws, pressure points, Ki power development, meditation and LOTS and LOTS of weapons (classical and modern).

We enjoy it, and have had success in spreading it to several countries. At one time we also had a dojang in Mexico, but no more. (Que lastima...). Anyway, thank you again for your kind words.

With respect and brotherhood,
Kuk Sa Nim

 

[ATC]

These are a little different from what I learned as a 540 degree kick. Let me give a small breakdown:
360 spin kick - Foot travels one full rotation, such as a spin kick where from a normal fighting stance, you make contact with the back foot, and it returns to the back foot position. 360 degree rotation.

450 spin kick - Foot travels 1 1/4 rotation, such as a spin kick where from a horse stance, you make contact with foot further from the initial spin rotation. 450 degree rotation.

540 spin kick - Foot travels 1 1/2 full rotation, such as a spin kick where from a normal fighting stance, you make contact with the lead foot, and it returns to the back foot position. 540 degree rotation.

When I started TKD back in '72, we were not required to do a 540. I first saw a 540 in Hapkido in '76. I never even heard of a 450 until I studied Do Hap Sool in '81. These are definitely special kicks and considered "fancy and or impractical" by many. Usually non-kickers, or older guys. Granted, these are for younger guys and do have a small window of realistic applications, but when used right, they are devastating. There is a lot of torque generated, and when applied right, the results are usually KO.

The step spin back kick and step spin kick are the basics for these kicks. Then we begin to add air...

One of my students has made several videos on youtube that show our version of spin kicks including the 360, 450 and 540. I think he used footage from our FMS demo dvd and FMS Jok Sul dvds. I don't know how to embed them but here are a couple of links.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3-jIed0IWs&feature=channel

At 3:50 you'll find our 540 spin back kick.
At 4:34 you'll find the 540 spin back kick over an object.
At 4:40 you begin to see the 360 spin kick and variations
At 4:53 you'll find the 450 spin kick
At 4:55 you'll find our version of the 540

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCWYUUJfuL0&feature=channel_video_title

In this clip you'll find applications for low kicks (ha che jok sul), combination kicks (pok sik jok sul) and spin kicks (tora jok sul). I believe there is a version for 540 towards the end.

Hope this adds to the conversation.
With respect and brotherhood,
Kuk Sa Nim

All of the kicks in the vid we just consider basic kicks. The one you call a 540 is just a standard back spin kick for us. The 360 into 540 in your vid is just a jump side kick back kick. The 360 in the vid is a simple back kick.

Most of the kicks your vid were actual kick we would use to compete with. When I hear 540 and 720 I think of demo type kicks that would not be used in competing or for real.

 

[terryl965]

540. 720. 900. 1080 they are all required at my school before you get your knee blown out then we only require the 540 and 720. You can never achieve greatest within without these kick and it has always been in TKD just like in the old day when warriors use to use kicks to get people off there horses, now back to our regular schedule program. :erg:

Just for the record I still do all of them today evn though I am fat, I simply never leave the ground.

 

[miguksaram]

Thank you very much Sir. Yes, these type of kicks are best suited for the younger guys, and I too find myself sticking to more basic kicks when sparring. And I also still have a great spin back kick that I can time pretty dangerously. But as far as the more fancy kicks, I keep them for fun and for show.

All of this footage was shot while in my late 30's and 40's, and believe it or not, with terrible injuries to both knees. Doctors here in SF told me to discontinue martial arts, and DEFINITELY no kicking." Those days are over" they told me. Well, that didn't sit well with me, and I guess I showed them.

As far as what type of martial art we do, it is called Modern Farang Mu Sul. It combines several Korean arts that I studied such as several versions of Hapkido, Tae Kwon Do, Kuk Sool Won, Do Hap Sool and Sun Mu Won, but it's main roots are in a couple versions of Hwarang Do (aka: Farang Kwan) that I studied. The idea was to have a very comprehensive art that is powerful, simple and yet very effective. Kind of a "Korean JKD". We try to exemplify the "Umm-Yang" philosophy. The art contains a wide variety of hand strikes (open and closed hands), LOTS of kicks, joint locks, throws, pressure points, Ki power development, meditation and LOTS and LOTS of weapons (classical and modern).

We enjoy it, and have had success in spreading it to several countries. At one time we also had a dojang in Mexico, but no more. (Que lastima...). Anyway, thank you again for your kind words.

With respect and brotherhood,
Kuk Sa Nim

As someone who has had the honor of training with DeAlba KSN, I can tell you first hand that that Farang Mu Sul is a great and fun art to study. It covers many different combative ranges from stand CQC to ground control. There is also a nice range of weapon work as well. He does a great job of maintaining traditional and modern training methods that make the art practical for today's world.

If you are ever in the San Francisco area you should definitely set some time to visit his school. Or if you have a chance to attend one of his seminars or bring him in to do a seminar I would highly recommend it.

 

[granfire]

540. 720. 900. 1080 they are all required at my school before you get your knee blown out then we only require the 540 and 720. You can never achieve greatest within without these kick and it has always been in TKD just like in the old day when warriors use to use kicks to get people off there horses, now back to our regular schedule program. :erg:

Just for the record I still do all of them today evn though I am fat, I simply never leave the ground.

:lfao:

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Thanks for all the replies. It seems we are all pretty much on the same page as far as this goes. It also appears that no ones club actually has the 540 as part of a set curriculum or as a grading requirement. It seems strange then, that this kick is synonomous with tkd. Many people I talk to wouldnt know the first thing about tkd and yet they still think the 540 and tkd go hand in hand and yet amongst tkdists there is still some debate as to what a 540 actually is. I dont feel as bad now that I will never be learning one

 

[Earl Weiss]

and yet amongst tkdists there is still some debate as to what a 540 actually is.

Not surprising considering how much debate there is about what TKD is among TKDists

 

[puunui]

Not surprising considering how much debate there is about what TKD is among TKDists

What debate?

 

[StudentCarl]

I think it's an interesting assumption that a 540 is therefore TKD. Are there no other martial arts that have one?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

What debate?

You're kidding right?

 

[ATACX GYM]

I've seen it too. Stripped down, it's just an aerialized step-forward into back or hook kick. For me to cover 540 degrees takes long enough that the refs could warn me for stalling, so I stick to the basics and win with footwork and deception. My 17 year old son can work the spin game with speed, and it's fun to watch. At 6'4, 165, and 17, when we spar and he launches, I have to tie up early or get out of town.

Your son sounds like a dynamo!

 

[Carol]

I think it's an interesting assumption that a 540 is therefore TKD. Are there no other martial arts that have one?

Well...the fact that it is in the TKD section, and the OP stated "Do you guys see this kick as a definite part of the tkd curriculum..." is, in my mind, a pretty good setup for the topic being a TKD discussion. Just a hunch tho... :lol:

 

[Twin Fist]

really, really cool

and really really useless, self defense wise

 

[ralphmcpherson]

really, really cool

and really really useless, self defense wise

True, completely useless for self defence, but I dont think these kicks are useless as a training tool. I remember learning a jump spinning hook kick because its a grading requirement and at the time I thought it was a complete waste of time learning the kick as its not something I would ever use to defend myself or even in sparring. By the time I had learned the kick and could do it well, I had improved my balance, centre of gravity, footwork and other things which in turn have helped me with other facets of my kicking and I definetely feel I am better off for having learnt it even though I would never actually use the kick itself. I think all these 'fancy' kicks can be a good training tool as long as the student doesnt spend too much time doing them. You learn a lot about your own body mechanics learning some of these techs.