you guys ever learn forms outside of taekwondo?

venihallayrd

White Belt
hi, newbie here. decided to make my first thread about something i was thinking about.

im currently only doing taekwondo right now due to scheduling reasons, and i decided to take a crack at learn some karate kata (tekki shodan/naihanchi, sanchin) as supplementary exercises for taekwondo poomsae. you guys ever try to learn forms outside of your tkd style's curriculum (if you dont crosstrain), or do you just stick with what you got?
 
Welcome to Martial Talk, Venihallayrd, nice to have you here. 😊

It’s really a matter of choice. As long as learning something else doesn’t cause conflict with what you’re doing, it might be okay.

But when you’re early in your Martial career, it might not be the best choice.

Please keep us posted as to what you do.
 
But yes, I like to merrily pillage forms from outside my martial art. I pinched tae guek yuk jang from your art to practice roundhouse kicks, for example. I am learning tan tui. You're at the beginning of your journey though, so maybe it's not such a good idea.
 
The issue becomes as to whether the technical parameters differ from your core art. Stance length, width, weight distributions angles of the feet, Chambers, Contact surfaces etc. and the complexity of having different habits for each. There are so many details in the Chang Hon system there is plenty to keep you occupied. There are other facets of that system for training an infinite variation of the technical parameters. Having said all that I have trained with weapons and patterns for those which were significantly different and did not cause any issues with keeping technical parameters separate.
 
Don't be afraid to look stuff up and get books and videos outside of classes within your own system though- I'm very, very bad at kinaesthetic learning so I had to look up kata online when I was at home in order to learn them properly. IMO a student who engages intellectually is a good student.
 
In my opinion, I wouldn't worry too much about learning the forms of another martial art unless you're cross-training in that martial art. How forms work varies from art to art, or from style to style. I'm not just talking about simple things like how "shoulder width" in a front stance may be defined as the outside of your feet line up with the inside of your shoulders in one style, but the inside of your feet line up with the outside of your shoulder in another style.

What I'm talking about is this: some schools (which has been my experience with Taekwondo) teach the forms as rote memorized choreographed items with specific details that you must follow, and the training is largely on the attention-to-detail of copying the form the way the Master does it. It's about building repetitions with specific movements to build balance, coordination, and quick-twitch muscle (among other things). But in this context it doesn't really teach you the strategy or technique as you would fight.

Other martial arts have forms that are trained relatively similar to those in my TKD experience, but the forms are then used for bunkai (to use the Japanese term) to help apply the techniques. Where in my TKD experience, the self-defense taught at a given belt level has nothing to do with the forms, in many other styles of similar martial arts (TKD, TSD, Karate, etc.) there is a direct connection.

For example, in a school I recently attended, yellow belts learn Taegeuks 1-2. Advanced yellow belts (who are learning Taegeuk 2) have self-defense that includes knife-hand blocks, but those blocks aren't in the forms until Taegeuk 3. Other styles will take the movements in a form and use those in that portion of the curriculum in application. A simple example would be knife-hand blocks showing up in self-defense in a similar spot as the block in Taegeuk 3. A more advanced description would be to find different scissor motions for a "scissor block" with any motion where the arms cross. It may be setting up an armlock, it may be pulling their hand down to open up a backfist, it may be pulling their guard up to set up a single leg.

I believe there are also styles where the techniques are taught first and then combined into forms specifically for the purpose of having solo drills.

If your goal is to learn more forms just for performance sake, then I think you're fine learning more forms as long as it doesn't negatively affect your performance in your primary art. If you want to learn Karate kata to learn them the way Karatekas do, then I would train Karate at a Karate dojo so you can experience the full depth of that curriculum.
 
In my opinion, I wouldn't worry too much about learning the forms of another martial art unless you're cross-training in that martial art. How forms work varies from art to art, or from style to style. I'm not just talking about simple things like how "shoulder width" in a front stance may be defined as the outside of your feet line up with the inside of your shoulders in one style, but the inside of your feet line up with the outside of your shoulder in another style.

What I'm talking about is this: some schools (which has been my experience with Taekwondo) teach the forms as rote memorized choreographed items with specific details that you must follow, and the training is largely on the attention-to-detail of copying the form the way the Master does it. It's about building repetitions with specific movements to build balance, coordination, and quick-twitch muscle (among other things). But in this context it doesn't really teach you the strategy or technique as you would fight.

Other martial arts have forms that are trained relatively similar to those in my TKD experience, but the forms are then used for bunkai (to use the Japanese term) to help apply the techniques. Where in my TKD experience, the self-defense taught at a given belt level has nothing to do with the forms, in many other styles of similar martial arts (TKD, TSD, Karate, etc.) there is a direct connection.

For example, in a school I recently attended, yellow belts learn Taegeuks 1-2. Advanced yellow belts (who are learning Taegeuk 2) have self-defense that includes knife-hand blocks, but those blocks aren't in the forms until Taegeuk 3. Other styles will take the movements in a form and use those in that portion of the curriculum in application. A simple example would be knife-hand blocks showing up in self-defense in a similar spot as the block in Taegeuk 3. A more advanced description would be to find different scissor motions for a "scissor block" with any motion where the arms cross. It may be setting up an armlock, it may be pulling their hand down to open up a backfist, it may be pulling their guard up to set up a single leg.

I believe there are also styles where the techniques are taught first and then combined into forms specifically for the purpose of having solo drills.

If your goal is to learn more forms just for performance sake, then I think you're fine learning more forms as long as it doesn't negatively affect your performance in your primary art. If you want to learn Karate kata to learn them the way Karatekas do, then I would train Karate at a Karate dojo so you can experience the full depth of that curriculum.

pretty much how im doing it right now. when i watch shotokan vids, i try to keep the stances consistent with how kukkiwon does stances so i dont confuse myself so i dont end up doing the widest damn jeuchunseogis throughout keumgang lol (no shade to karatekas ofc)
 
I believe there are also styles where the techniques are taught first and then combined into forms specifically for the purpose of having solo drills.
The Chang Hon system stipulates this. Any new fundamental techniques are taught before teaching the form. They can then also be used in various other exercises.
 
The Chang Hon system stipulates this. Any new fundamental techniques are taught before teaching the form. They can then also be used in various other exercises.
I was 99% sure there were styles that did this, but on the 1% I was wrong, I decided to include the caveat of "I believe".

It's a tactic I learned working a help desk. You don't say, "This will be completed in the next 30 minutes."
Instead, you say, "This should be completed in the next 30 minutes."
That way, you can set the customer's expectations without giving them a valid reason to complain.
 
hi, newbie here. decided to make my first thread about something i was thinking about.

im currently only doing taekwondo right now due to scheduling reasons, and i decided to take a crack at learn some karate kata (tekki shodan/naihanchi, sanchin) as supplementary exercises for taekwondo poomsae. you guys ever try to learn forms outside of your tkd style's curriculum (if you dont crosstrain), or do you just stick with what you got?
It is quite common to cross-learn After a person has a good handle on their required curriculum. Otherwise it can cause a bit of confusion when learning new patterns.

Welcome to the forum. Take in as much variety as you can without creating any mix-up and you will be good.
 
I enjoy learning other forms to see if there's any inspriation to be gathered from it. In-person is preferred, but even through videos you can learn some cool things.

That said, I started this after I'd been training for 15-20 years, meaning I can pick things up and figure out bunkai on my own for the most part, and if it's through a video I don't view it as me actually learning the form/being able to do the form. There are nuances to the styles or even the forms itself that you can't get without feedback.
 
It is quite common to cross-learn After a person has a good handle on their required curriculum.

I enjoy learning other forms to see if there's any inspriation to be gathered from it.

That said, I started this after I'd been training for 15-20 years,
It is best to have some blackbelt knowledge in one style before getting involved/cross training in another. Some may think they will learn concepts their style lacks, but often it's a case of thinking the grass is greener over the hill and not realizing what's in their own backyard. They don't yet realize that there is depth that's revealed only after years of study. Jumping into another style will just yield a variety of surface knowledge. Better to first really understand one to be able to appreciate and incorporate another.
 
Not these days. you can buy well priced and attractive books full of them.
I see my sarcasm was overlooked. The whole idea that there were super secret and hidden applications because people were too stupid to figure it out was always difficult for me to accept and recent publications simply are evidence of that although I will say some of the publications also strain the imagination.
 
I see my sarcasm was overlooked. The whole idea that there were super secret and hidden applications because people were too stupid to figure it out was always difficult for me to accept and recent publications simply are evidence of that although I will say some of the publications also strain the imagination.
Oh, agreed. One has to use common sense. There are still karateka who will tell you that the jumping kick in pinan godan and/or kushanku is intended to knock your opponent off a horse (!) There are no *fudging* groundfighting applications in chinto, for example. I think sometimes there might be concepts similar to the kung fu concepts of running your opponent down though. Sorry, I don't always pick up on sarcasm.
 
you guys ever try to learn forms outside of your tkd style's curriculum?
Many years ago, a blown belt from TKD master Kin Soo (in Houston) who came to my school. He told me that Kin Soo knew a CMA form "Xiao Hu Yan" that he really wanted to learn. After I have taught him that form "Xiao Hu Yan", few months later, Kin gave him the black belt.

Even TKD master Kim Soo also cross trained form from other MA system.

 
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I try not to self-teach forms from a completely unrelated style because its likely I will miss key aspects. I do cross train a lot though and our school still does the kwan era kata/hyong that come from shotokan in addition to kkw poomsae. I have found that when I cross train shorin ryu it's similar enough to our CDK TKD that it's easy to catch on to. Uechi kata though, quite different and definitiely not something I would do well without my cross training partner. I also cross train bjj and our gym has a solo flow drill that we do everyday as a warm up that is in every aspect a bjj kata and I find it hilarious that my coach agrees its just a school specific kata, but the other bjj bros get mad when I call it a kata.
 
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