Street Effective

[AriesKai]

When you're in the workshop (dojo) you can play with every tool from the 'toyshop'. When you're on the street the 'Leatherman' looks after most of your needs. KISS! :asian:

lol are you referring to a 'leatherman' multitool or knife?
because I prefer gerber or kabar.

4 words..

weapon defense. weapon disarms.


(yes, a lot of the time you don't even know your opponent pulls a knife until it's too late.. i disagree.)

 

[Xinglu]

What makes a MA street effective? IMHO, the practitioner. It seriously comes down to HOW a person trains and approaches their art, not the art itself.

 

[Xinglu]

What i've personally thought about:

Using my experience in traditional Jujitsu
Using my experience in Judo
Using my experience in Muay Thai
Using my experience in BJJ
Learning some more Karate (perhaps Shotokan?)
Learning more Kenpo
Learning more San Shou
Learning some more FMA (Kali/Escrima)
Learning some Aikido/Aikijutsu

Blending it all in one.

:-offtopic

If I may suggest, this would probably be better as a separate thread.

 

[Flying Crane]

I see. Another thanks, again!!

quite welcome.

What is a good system, or mix of styles where I can have:

1)Lethal techniques: eye rakes, gouges, trachea chokes, biting (if must), temple strikes, disabling and stunning techniques, limb breaking, and submissions

2)Good and powerful stand up techniques: kicking, punching, proper headbutting, elbows

3)Great standup defensive techniques against hand strikes/punches/ect, kicking, kneeing, clinching, headbutting, elbows

3)Great takedown techniques for offense and defense, with takedown defenses.

4)Great ground game; something I can use to gain the advantage just enough to get back up on my feet. The ground has it's hazards in real life.. such as gravel, rocks, pavement, ect..

4)Weapon defenses with disarms, lethal disarms, ect.

5)Lethal and non-lethal weapon offensive techniques


I do know that it will more than likely take years to learn all of this...
But I'm willing to give my full 110% committment. This is all something I will be able to pass onto my children, and them to theirs, ect..
I may even redefine these techniques as I go.

By the way, my motivation isn't just to defend myself.. I'm working on a career in law enforcement. I'm almost done with my degree. I'll also be returning to active duty (US Army) in July of this coming year. I got a discharge for misconduct, and am returning to the Army so I can try again.. a commendable thing to do. Civilian life is hard when you have bad military experience. I'll need to learn both lethal and non-lethal offensive and defensive techniques that'll help me in my career.
Pressure Point Control Techniques are NOT enough alone.. My stepfather was a police officer for over 20 years in SWAT and SRTs, and took up a modified form of TKD, and that was just barely enough for him.


Anyone got any good ideas?



What i've personally thought about:

Using my experience in traditional Jujitsu
Using my experience in Judo
Using my experience in Muay Thai
Using my experience in BJJ
Learning some more Karate (perhaps Shotokan?)
Learning more Kenpo
Learning more San Shou
Learning some more FMA (Kali/Escrima)
Learning some Aikido/Aikijutsu

Blending it all in one.


What do you think? Anyone else agree/disagree? Why? Why not?


Thanks for all input, everyone!!

My advice: be careful about mixing too many things together.

how much experience do you have so far? You've got some things already that can be a base to work from or at least incorporate into what you do.

don't let your eyes get bigger that your stomach, as my dad used to say when we took more food than we could eat. You're listing a lot of systems, each of which has its own good points and bad points, which may differ depending on perspective. I'd say find a good instructor in your neck of the woods. What he is teaching is less important than the fact that he is good and skilled and knowledgeable and an effective teacher with whom you have a good relationship. Lacking those traits, it doesn't matter what he is teaching or how good he is, it will be a frustrating experience that you might not even stick with. If several good teachers are in your area, then you can get more choosey about what style you want to do.

Take your time and learn the system well. Don't be in a hurry. learn what the system has to offer. You might think the system has holes in it, but as you grow within it, you might discover that it has solutions to problems that simply weren't obvious to you.

Later, you can consider learning another system, but don't be in a hurry. Standard advice that many people give is, earn your shodan or equivalent first, before you branch off. I don't think there is a hard rule to follow, but I'll just say, be very cautious and careful about how you do that. Don't try to do too much at once, and learn each system on its own merits. Don't try to convert your second system into your first. They may do things differently for very good reasons, and you need to learn what those reasons are. You may find that some things conflict with each other, and are not a good mix to practice simultaneously. But you need at least several years in one system before you start to branch out. Years, not months.

Ultimately, learning one system thoroughly and deeply and well will put you in a better position than learning several on a mediocre or superficial level.

 

[geezer]

It is a French word, and the French have played a significant role in recent Vietnamese history, I'm guessing that is where the derivation is.

All 'o youse guys is right. It's properly spelled "beaucoup" and pronounced "buku" in good 'ol American vernacular. Servicemen brought the term back from 'Nam which was a former French colony. Many Vietnamese of that era still spoke French and mixed it with Vietnamese and English when communicating with our troops. So, for example, you might have a local scout tell you something like, "Go back, go back! Beaucoup VC!"

At least that's the story guys told me back in the 70's. I missed the war by a year or so. For once it was a good thing to be the youngest kid on the block!

Now to get on-topic... I'm with Flying Crane when he warned about the dangers of letting your toolbox get too big. The best fighters I've met don't try to do everything. They do a few things very well, and can adapt what they do to a lot of situations. And more than that, they have an attitude or mindset. That's the hard part to learn.

 

[Chris Parker]

Okay, I'm going to weigh in here. I've avoided this thread so far as it felt like I would just be repeating what I have said a number of times before, and indeed it looks like that is what is about to happen. This could take a while...

What makes something street effective (or really, any kind of effective, whether ring-effective, demonstration-effective, health-effective, flexibility-effective, or any other kind of effective) is the way it is trained. Most of the most experienced here have already said that, but it is often prudent to go a little deeper into it to understand exactly what "training properly" in this instance really is, as just saying "train properly" is not often understood.

Not much of it is physical. Almost none of it is related to the actual techniques. It is not related to the broadness of the art studied. It has nothing to do with the ranges of distance and technique learnt. This is why MJS first said that any art can be "street effective". The physical side is not the important one.

What is important is the mental side. By that I mean training your unconscious mind, training with a serious realistic mindset, demonstrating to your unconscious mind that what you are training in is real, and powerful. Physical repetition is one method, however if you just repeat your techniques with a half-hearted mind, not paying attention, then you are telling yourself (unconsciously) that it is not powerful, and not important. That means that when your unconscious looks for where to put these skills, it doens't put them in the box marked "POWERFUL, IMPORTANT, LIFE SAVING!!!", it puts them in a box marked "boring, weak, unimportant". And when you go to find them when you need them (when the survival part of your mind looks for them in a real situation), they simply aren't there. This leads to martial artists, even highly experienced ones, freezing under the stress of an assault. None of their training comes out, as it is not given the right importance in the first place.

To understand that, you need to realise that under a high stress high adrenaline situation, the conscious part of your mind (the one that says "Oh, I'll do this, I'll use this stance, I'll watch this part of him") will shut down. You won't be able to stop it, it does that because that is how we have survived for generations, it is automatic. So to make the most of that, you need to recognise that what will come to the front will be your unconscious, looking for that IMPORTANT SURVIVAL box. And if you haven't put anything into it, it'll be empty, and trying to put it in then is just far too late.

As Geezer said, Flying Crane is correct in not letting your "toolbox" get too big. You are just confusing your unconscious mind with what is important and powerful, so it'll either freeze because it can't figure out what to do, or it'll just go with the one you unconsciously believe is the most powerful, meaning that everything else you've spent time on is basically wasted effort. Competition is a different beast, by the way, but this thread is about street effectiveness.

I think it was also Flying Crane who lamented the proclivity of martial artists to look outside their own systems for answers, rather than understand their own art well enough to see the answers are already there. This happens in waves, currently with MMA, previously with BJJ. Many martial artists and schools suddenly thought "Hang on, I don't have a ground fighting syllabus in my (karate) system, I'd better tack on another persons art". This actually is exactly what my old karate instructor did. And then he wondered why his students couldn't get the hang of the BJJ he brought in. What he missed completely was the fact that BJJ and the karate system he was teaching are completely opposed in regard to power source, tactics, strategies, weapon use, principles, and desired outcomes and aims. No wonder it didn't work! Each art by themselves worked great, but they don't work together. What he would have been better off doing (as he was very experienced and knowledgable in his chosen art) would be doing some BJJ himself to get an understanding of the requirements of this different environment, and usable and non-usable mechanics there, and then adapting his art to suit his new understanding of the ground. Essentially, he would then be doing karate ground fighting, it would be congruent, there would be no doubt to the unconscious mind as to what was happening and what was powerful, and the percieved lack would be taken care of. And all within the confines of his own art! And that is the way it should work.

Now, AriesKai (interesting handle... "God Of War Group/Club"? Roman God, Japanese group? Hmm). Well, you have made quite a few posts in a few days, and there are some definate threads to your approach. One thing I want to address from another of your posts is your Meet and Greet one. I recognise that you have your reasons for being here, but frankly you also need to come to terms with a bit of reality. I didn't want to do this in the Meet and Greet thread itself, as that is meant to be a very welcoming place, but this needs to be addressed. You state that you are here wanting "professional advice", and go on to say that you don't want to hear "from anyone with less than 15 years experience, so nothing from the peanut gallery". Frankly, that is not cool. You yourself are only 21, so to me, and a fair few others here, you are basically a kid. And any member can post an answer to any thread, so you will get "the peanut gallery" as well as those more experienced. Deal with it, open your mind, and learn from them. One of the best guys here in terms of advice and attitude has only been training in his art for about a year or so. And you would do very well to listen to him.

Okay, that's out of the way. Now to the crux of your posts. You constantly give us your resume, and frankly, I'm unimpressed. Not with your list of arts, but with your approach. In these arts, more does not equal better. In fact, more often equal worse. It really is a place where quality trumps quantity every single time. You are also doing everything from a conscious level of understanding, and as I said, that will be the first thing you lose in a street encounter, so what you "think" or "plan" you will do is not relevant, as it will not be there. Focus on one thing, and train it properly. This isn't like a workshop (despite the metaphor offered earlier), martial arts are specialist fields. You also stated earlier that you think "bullies" will go and train in schools. Actually, the thing most street fighters and predators have over a martial artist is experience. They are experienced at hurting people. They know what is powerful and important (generating success), and that is what they do. And, more often than not, it involves no training, and is one or two "techniques". They maybe a head butt, or a right hook, or anything else we have a name for, but most likely the other guy won't have a name for it at all. It'll just be a punch.

One last thing I want to address is your terminology. You constantly refer to such things as "lethal techniques", then list some very non-lethal actions. Eye gouging, biting, etc are not lethal techniques, which I suspect you recognise at some level. So why do you use such terminology? Well, it feels powerful. You also spent some time in the army (discharged, but not particularly positively I believe?), so the idea of lethal may have been drilled into you there. Recognise that lethal in the street equals jail. For a long time. The only difference is if you can state that you feel that your life was in danger, and that can be demonstrated to a jury or judge. But they may say you overreacted...

My best advice to you (and I stated this on another thread of yours as well) is simple. Empty your cup if you want to learn. You are coming here overflowing, and pushing away people who could really help you. Let them.

Okay, I think that's it. For now, at least...

 

[Bruno@MT]

Using my experience in traditional Jujitsu
Using my experience in Judo
Using my experience in Muay Thai
Using my experience in BJJ
Learning some more Karate (perhaps Shotokan?)
Learning more Kenpo
Learning more San Shou
Learning some more FMA (Kali/Escrima)
Learning some Aikido/Aikijutsu

Blending it all in one.

If you take different kinds of paint, and blend them all together, you won't get a rainbow. You get some undistinct brown muck.

Honestly, it takes years to learn 1 art to a degree where you can claim an understanding of how it works instead of looking at it as a collection of specific tricks / techniques. Only when you have that basic understanding can you begin to think how you can blend things in a sensible way and not turn it into a mess. It's also at that point when you will realize that some things cannot be combined except by using duct tape and glue. Things like Muay Thai and aikido are almost complete opposites.

 

[Chris Parker]

Good timing Bruno, you are who I was refering to above.... not that I would refer to you in relation to peanuts in any way!

 

[Bruno@MT]

Thanks Chris

 

[Ironcrane]

For me, my feelings are that the words "street effective" are used so much, that they've just become a selling point, and not much more then that.

 

[xJOHNx]

For me, my feelings are that the words "street effective" are used so much, that they've just become a selling point, and not much more then that.

Aye, that's true. As the rest said, it's what you make out of it.
I also tend to agree with my sensei. He always says that technique is one thing, but character is another thing. Character is what gives your technique 'flavour'.


Arieskai: don't take this the wrong way, but have you already trained before?

 

[MJS]

I do not agree that for something to be street effective it must include all kinds of fighting skills. Someone could be very very good at fighting with his hands for instance, and be able to defeat attackers who attempt to engage him no matter what their method or range.

If the person can get his tools to work in a chaotic situation, then it is street effective for him, even if he's got a small toolbox.

I think there can be a danger is having a tool box that is too big. Not enough time to practice everything to a level of competence, so everything ends up being mediocre.

But it is possible for the person to still limit themselves, and this has been proven. As much as I hate using the UFC as an example, as we all know there are differences between the cage and the real world, I can't help but to think about all of the standup guys who were like fish out of water, once they hit the mat. Additionally, I can recall a few fights, where the smaller guy, not wanting to trade with the larger, simply used footwork and hammered away with kicks at the legs of the larger man, eventually wearing him down enough, so the smaller guy went in for the finish.

As far as knowing too much and wondering how its possible to know it all....personally, I dont suggest cross training until a base art is established first, with at least a rank of brown belt. For me, I'm not concerned with a time frame. I'm always learning. If someone already has a good strong base, then looking at something else, really shouldn't be all that hard.

Think back to an early UFC with Mark Coleman and Maurice Smith. Smith trained with Frank Shamrock, learning enough basic ground skill, to frustrate the hell out of Coleman. He managed escapes, got back to his feet, and finished from there, getting the win.

I dont now, nor will I, claim to be a master grappler. I dont know 100 different mount escapes, guard passes, locks or chokes, but.....I drill the hell out of the basics that I do know, and feel confident enough with them, so that should I end up on the ground with an untrained or semi-trained person, that I could either escape or get a sub. My goal isn't to learn 1001 ways to do this or that.

Weapons....as you know, there are weapons disarms in Kenpo, but I use my Arnis training, to compare and improve them for me. Again, I'm in no rush. I'd rather take something, work the hell out of it, get good at it, know that I can pull it off, and then move onto the next piece, rather than trying to do it all at the same time.

Edit: Just wanted to add another piece. Alot of it comes down to how you train. If you're already gearing yoru art to be street effective, making subtle additions, changes, etc., shouldn't be time consuming or difficult. Take Kaju for example. Already we have an art that has been proven, so one of those guys, taking up Kali to broaden their weapons work, should be fairly easy.

 

[MJS]

Ok, i've taken everything you've said and I agree.
I will tell you, though.. that around where "I" live (Dallas), there are teenagers learning these skills, teenagers that are much bigger and stronger than most people (I've met some 14 year old kids that are about 6'4 and 200+lbs that are solid muscle. perhaps steroids??), and they're taking up these BJJ and MT classes.
I've met some of these teens at Saekson Janjira's MT school, and they're quite good at the martial art. These kids are very cocky, very arrogant, and feel the need to be better than everyone else. These kids also tend to be the bullies.
Some think that just because a kid is 14+, that means they're weaker and/or have less capabilities than others. That is false, i've watched a 15 year old kid beat the hell out of a Marine 0311 (Infantryman) who 'kills for a living'. The Marine DID start the fight, trying to bully this kid, and the kid took up his offer. The police got called and the MARINE went to jail!!!

Anyhow... I agree with what you're saying about self defense.
I like to use lethal strikes (eye rakes, gouges, trachea chokes, ect), devastating and stunning strikes, with some grappling and takedown techniques. Why takedown and grapple techniques? Because I feel that if I slam this thug down on the pavement, gravel, or concrete, then he's going to be less-reluctant to fight, and will actually be hindered 90% of his mobility due to the position he's in (supine). I also know that if I obtain some grappling skill against multiple attackers, I'll be able to use this to my advantage in putting them in a line with each other.
Example:
"3 opponents rush at me. I take the one that's closest to me after putting them in a line as quickly as possible, and use him as a human sheild. This way, his buddies won't be able to attack me. If they go around me, execute the first man and take the next one, or get the hell out."

I think that having some good familiarization on the grapple game will help, versus being a sitting duck when someone is sitting on top of you, pounding your lights out, or puts you in a kimura.


Just my thought on the matter..

One thing to keep in mind, and this goes for anyone....martial arts or MMA training, does not turn you into a Superman. Just because someone trains BJJ, is 17, and big, doesnt mean that they're immune to losing. Are they tough? Sure. I'd also say that the average punk thats going to try to rob me, probably isn't going to be Ken Shamrocks evil twin. I'll further point out, seeing that sometimes, people like to use RL things as proof. I'll refer back to Fight Quest. We saw 2 strong MMA guys, having a rough time with some of the other arts.

Its not always what you train in, but how you train.

 

[MJS]

What makes a MA street effective? IMHO, the practitioner. It seriously comes down to HOW a person trains and approaches their art, not the art itself.

QFT!!! Agreed 100%

 

[MJS]

quite welcome.




My advice: be careful about mixing too many things together.

how much experience do you have so far? You've got some things already that can be a base to work from or at least incorporate into what you do.

don't let your eyes get bigger that your stomach, as my dad used to say when we took more food than we could eat.

Great points! I could probably find at least 5 more things I'd love to train in, but come on...is that realistic? Of course not. The arts I do, other than Kenpo, all found me, I didn't go looking for them. I say this because many others that I trained with, trained in one or more of those, so...the rest is history.

IMO, for me, what I do, makes me complete. I have stand up, weapons, ground. I enjoy trading info with others as well. I mean, if I were to meet up with a JKD guy, I'm sure I could find something that caught my eye. Would I start training JKD? Probably not, but if I could take a trick, work it, and make something I already do, better, why not.

But yes, biting off more than you can chew isn't a good idea.

 

[MJS]

I think it was also Flying Crane who lamented the proclivity of martial artists to look outside their own systems for answers, rather than understand their own art well enough to see the answers are already there. This happens in waves, currently with MMA, previously with BJJ. Many martial artists and schools suddenly thought "Hang on, I don't have a ground fighting syllabus in my (karate) system, I'd better tack on another persons art". This actually is exactly what my old karate instructor did. And then he wondered why his students couldn't get the hang of the BJJ he brought in. What he missed completely was the fact that BJJ and the karate system he was teaching are completely opposed in regard to power source, tactics, strategies, weapon use, principles, and desired outcomes and aims. No wonder it didn't work! Each art by themselves worked great, but they don't work together. What he would have been better off doing (as he was very experienced and knowledgable in his chosen art) would be doing some BJJ himself to get an understanding of the requirements of this different environment, and usable and non-usable mechanics there, and then adapting his art to suit his new understanding of the ground. Essentially, he would then be doing karate ground fighting, it would be congruent, there would be no doubt to the unconscious mind as to what was happening and what was powerful, and the percieved lack would be taken care of. And all within the confines of his own art! And that is the way it should work.

This is something that I've gone around and around with my fellow Kenpoists. I say that there isnt much grappling/ground fighting ( yes there is a difference IMO) in Kenpo, while others say there is. But, there was a clip from a Kenpoist, who was showing a ground fighting/grappling move, using a Kenpo tech. The was a tech. designed to be used while standing, but he used it, to defend himself while he was mounted. However, IMO, the defense was flawed from the start, because the attacker wasn't giving his best attack, meaning, the mount basically sucked, which, IMO, allowed an easier defense.

Now, while rolling, I've found places to insert some Kenpo stuff, but for me, I prefer to use grappling as my defense. Kenpo has takedown defense, defense against standing grappling attacks, ie: chokes and grabs, but as far as what to do on the ground....I'm not seeing it. Again, just my opinion, but it seems that sometimes people are afraid to look outside the box. Why I dont know. Afraid to admit something is flawed? Maybe I'm the one thats flawed. I look at it like this....if I want to learn to fly, I go to a school that'll teach me that, not one that teaches how to drive a car. I want to better my tennis game, I'll go to a tennis pro, not a golfer. I want to better my ground game, I'll go to BJJ, weapons...a weapon based art.

I like to work and compare my Kenpo stuff to how others would attack. Does my Kenpo defense address this? If so, great, if not, I need to work on something else.

 

[Joab]

Could it be what is street efective is whatever you can make effective on the street? If your an expert judo player being attacked by multiple muggers, grabbing some guy by the jacket and throwing him at his fellow thugs could very well be street effective. Kicking some guy in the knee could be street effective, hitting someone with a makeshift weapon could be street effective, taking someone to the ground and pinning him could be street effective etc. if you can make it work. Sounds logical to me.

 

[Flying Crane]

But it is possible for the person to still limit themselves, and this has been proven...

Hey Mike,

as a fellow kenpo guy, I'll go back and quote Mr. Parker. I'll actually try and suppress my gag reflex, because I really hate it when people do this, but in this case I think it's appropriate.

How many people like to point out that Mr. Parker said something on the lines of, "I'd rather have ten good techs that I can really use, than 100 techs that I can't use"? People quote this all the time, I can't count the number of times I've seen this in the kenpo threads.

Sometimes having too many systems in the mix, too many partially understood arts thrown into a hodgepodge, is like having 100 techs that you can't use. You end up ignoring, or not giving enough training time to the 10 that you can use.

I'm saying this as someone who has also trained several different systems. Much of what I've trained I've also let go, because I came to the conclusion that it's not right for me. I still train a couple of systems, but I'm very careful about spreading myself too thin.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Hey Mike,

as a fellow kenpo guy, I'll go back and quote Mr. Parker. I'll actually try and suppress my gag reflex, because I really hate it when people do this, but in this case I think it's appropriate.

How many people like to point out that Mr. Parker said something on the lines of, "I'd rather have ten good techs that I can really use, than 100 techs that I can't use"? People quote this all the time, I can't count the number of times I've seen this in the kenpo threads.

Sometimes having too many systems in the mix, too many partially understood arts thrown into a hodgepodge, is like having 100 techs that you can't use. You end up ignoring, or not giving enough training time to the 10 that you can use.

I'm saying this as someone who has also trained several different systems. Much of what I've trained I've also let go, because I came to the conclusion that it's not right for me. I still train a couple of systems, but I'm very careful about spreading myself too thin.

Not Kenpo but you can learn all of the forms and all of the variations of each posture in Taiji but all you need to understand to know how to fight are the 13 postures... but don't let that fool you... that is harder than it sounds

 

[bowser666]

This is also very similar to a which style is better discussion. Style has nothing to do whatsoever with street effectiveness. It is the skill of the individual that counts. Not even just skill, but does the person have street smarts, can they control their adrenaline and mind in a fight, are they able to use their brain/voice to talk their way out of a fight etc....... Skill/style is only a small part of the equation. Just my $.02