Question on defense against grappling in street fight

[Kung Fu Wang114 145]

If there is no rules on no eyes gouging and allow to hit at the back of the head and neck, it will take a lot of advantages out of grappling.

I don't understand why it's not allowed to kick someone when he is down.



If the rule allow to kick the groin when someone is on the ground, you won't see this on the mat.

 

[Alan0354]

View attachment 34048

So why can't a grappler stick his finger in your eye mid collar tie?

You can both stick fingers in eyes.

So there is no advantage.

(Side note this is how I used to hit my standing grape choke. Which structurally makes it really hard to shake me off)

And then the other side of that is you can be hit hard enough with a fist to stop grappling. And that is allowed.

You even watch the video I provided explaining eyes gouging in a lot more effective against the grappler than a striker? Watch the video, you will learn something.

This picture is how you start, not me. I use your video and explain how I defend myself not by a specific move, but a general boxing punching high and low, then pull both hand back to cover my face and upper body and at the same time dip down and pull away to avoid being grabbed. THE MOST IMPORTANT IS I DO IT THE NATURAL WAY OF PROTECTING MY FACE IN BOXING. SAME MOVE WILL PUT BOTH MY FOREARM AND HANDS IN BETWEEN THE GRABBLER TO MAKE IT HARD TO GRAB ONTO ME.

All a striker needs is to hold for a second, then eyes gouging and hitting at the back of the head come quickly.

I don't think you get it, this is grabbling defense for 1 sec to make time for eyes gouging or hitting the back of the head. Of cause it all depends on the experty of the person. You cannot use an expert to fight against a beginner. If you already put a rear naked choke on the person, it's too late already. The point is strategy is to avoid being grabbed long enough to eyes gouge or hitting on the back of the head.

 

[Alan0354]

I don't understand why it's not allowed to kick someone when he is down.



If the rule allow to kick the groin when someone is on the ground, you won't see this on the mat.

MMA fight is very bias towards grapplers.

Like I said before, in the beginning of UFC, strikers were totally surprised by BJJ grabbling. But very soon, they set new rules not allowing hitting on the back of the head or neck, that's the best defense against grabblers.

Just watch all the fights, how often the grabbler push the opponent against the cage, then get into a stand still trying to get hold of the legs to pull the opponent down. THE BACK OF THE HEAD IS EXPOSED FOR MINUTES. CAN THEY SURVIVE IF THE RULES ALLOW TO ELBOW THE BACK OF THE HEAD, HAMMER FIST ON THE BACK OF THE HEAD AND NECK. The grabbler will be knocked out in 15 sec taking hit on the back of the head and neck.

 

[Alan0354]

View attachment 34048

So why can't a grappler stick his finger in your eye mid collar tie?

You can both stick fingers in eyes.

So there is no advantage.

(Side note this is how I used to hit my standing grape choke. Which structurally makes it really hard to shake me off)

And then the other side of that is you can be hit hard enough with a fist to stop grappling. And that is allowed.

This is so typical a grabbler pin the opponent against the wall and drag on for minutes like this. Look at the back of the head and neck. So easy to gouge the eyes. This us a joke of there is no rules.

 

[Alan0354]

View attachment 34048

So why can't a grappler stick his finger in your eye mid collar tie?

You can both stick fingers in eyes.

So there is no advantage.

(Side note this is how I used to hit my standing grape choke. Which structurally makes it really hard to shake me off)

And then the other side of that is you can be hit hard enough with a fist to stop grappling. And that is allowed.

Look at this take down, so typical. Look at the picture, the grappler's head is out for being eyes gouged and elbow on the back of the head. all it takes is 1 sec.

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 145]

Look at this take down, so typical. Look at the picture, the grappler's head is out for being eyes gouged and elbow on the back of the head. all it takes is 1 sec.

When your opponent shoots in toward your leading leg, either his head is vertical, or his head is horizontal.

If your opponent head is

- vertical, you can push on his forehead to apply pressure on his neck when you sink down.
- horizontal, you can drop elbow on the back of his head when you step back.

 

[wab25]

I gave you the answer in post #54.... Learn your foot work. Learn your jab. Change levels with the grappler, throw the jab and step off at an angle... keep him at range.

This is how boxer should do in real fighting.

1) PUNCHING HIGH AND LOW TO THROW OPPONENT OFF THE GAME.

2) IMMEDIATE PULL BOTH HANDS BACK TO PROTECT FACE AND UPPER BODY( this serve to put hands and arms in between the opponent and me to make it hard to be grapped).

3) Further dip body down and step sideway or back to slip out of the grappler. These are just simple boxing technique, but should be effective against grappling. USE BODY WEIGHT AND PUT HANDS BETWEEN ME AND THE GRAPPLER.

This is mostly boxing 101..... Why do you think boxers are not taught this? They are.... with one exception.... Don't back out straight, or pull straight back. Even a boxer will step with you and hit you hard if you pull straight back. Grapplers can shoot much further than boxers.... so you will be caught by pulling straight back.

Use your foot work to keep distance, change levels and throw single jabs, then pivot and step out on an angle. Use this approach to set up your bigger punches.

One thing you should learn by watching MMA is that you need to make the other guy play your game... not the other way around. When a pure grappler tries to learn striking for a few months to out strike a really good striker.... the striker makes the grappler look silly. Same when a pure striker tries to learn a few months of grappling to fight an elite grappler. That's because they are trying to defeat at master at his own game... with a few months of practice. If an elite striker can keep it a striking match with the elite grappler... the striker wins. If the elite grappler can make the elite striker grapple.... the grappler wins.

The secret to making the other guy fight your fight is the same for grappler and striker.... learn your foot work. Practice your foot work. Learning your distance and angles paired with good foot work is what will keep you on your feet striking or get you into grappling range to effect your take down.

 

[Alan0354]

I gave you the answer in post #54.... Learn your foot work. Learn your jab. Change levels with the grappler, throw the jab and step off at an angle... keep him at range.


This is mostly boxing 101..... Why do you think boxers are not taught this? They are.... with one exception.... Don't back out straight, or pull straight back. Even a boxer will step with you and hit you hard if you pull straight back. Grapplers can shoot much further than boxers.... so you will be caught by pulling straight back.

Use your foot work to keep distance, change levels and throw single jabs, then pivot and step out on an angle. Use this approach to set up your bigger punches.

One thing you should learn by watching MMA is that you need to make the other guy play your game... not the other way around. When a pure grappler tries to learn striking for a few months to out strike a really good striker.... the striker makes the grappler look silly. Same when a pure striker tries to learn a few months of grappling to fight an elite grappler. That's because they are trying to defeat at master at his own game... with a few months of practice. If an elite striker can keep it a striking match with the elite grappler... the striker wins. If the elite grappler can make the elite striker grapple.... the grappler wins.

The secret to making the other guy fight your fight is the same for grappler and striker.... learn your foot work. Practice your foot work. Learning your distance and angles paired with good foot work is what will keep you on your feet striking or get you into grappling range to effect your take down.

That's what I was talking about changing level on punching, step back, sideway after punching using footwork just like boxers. Dug down while stepping off holding both hands high with hands at face level JUST LIKE boxers. This will put the hands and arms between me and the grappler to make it hard for the grappler to wrap hands around me.

Yes, footwork is everything.

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 145]

This will put the hands and arms between me and the grappler to make it hard for the grappler to wrap hands around me.

This may give your opponent a better chance to warp your arm.

If your opponent can separate your arms away from your head/body and occupy your center, you will be in trouble. The question is how do you prevent that from happening?

 

[wab25]

If your opponent can separate your arms away from your head/body and occupy your center, you will be in trouble. The question is how do you prevent that from happening?

Move your feet!

In both of your examples... one guy just stands there with his arms up. If he however, moves his feet as the other guy approaches, the wrap will be harder. And by moving the feet, I don't mean straight back... I mean turning, going to the side, using angles.... add some quick jabs in the mix, and it will be very hard to get those wraps.

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 145]

Move your feet!

Footwork is the solution for everything. If your opponent can move back faster than your advance, none of your technique can work on him. But you cannot always try to avoid problem. Sometimes you have to face the problem and solve it.

Sometimes, the best counter to a technique is the technique itself. When your opponent tries to separate your arms, you can rotate your arms with him and separate his arms instead.

 

[AndrewWhitaker]

Thanks for the reply

I have no illusion that I can prevent myself from taken to the ground. I don't know grappling, too old to practice that. I am talking about the easiest way to inflict max damage so even if I got taken to the ground, he would be in such pain and blind I can push him off with my strength. This is better than if he takes me down with full strength and sight.

If you look at all the take downs, mainly is of 2 different ways. Both will give me a second or two where his head will be within reach by my hands

1) go low, grab my legs and push me back to the ground. In this case, his head will be either on the left or right side at my waist level. It should be easy to reach his eyes with my hands and gauge him with everything I have.

2) tackle high grabbing my body and arms and hook one of my leg with his to trip me backwards to fell back on my back. If I hold my hands up like in usual boxing for defense. his head will be right where my hands are and I can easily gauge his eyes.

YES, I will be tripped to the ground. Without training and practice, I don't think there is a chance for me not to fell backwards on my back and he'll be on top of me. THAT KEY IS TO DO ALL THE DAMAGE BEFORE HITTING THE GROUND. HE'LL BE BLIND AND IN PAIN. I WILL HAVE A FIGHTING CHANCE.

I don't want to talk like all the "Martial artists" that "if you do this, I will do that" type of things. MAKE IT SIMPLE. I AM NOT PRACTICING IN SCHOOL, I WILL NEVER HAVE THE TECHNIQUE TO AVOID BEING TAKEN DOWN. THE KEY IS TO DO A LOT OF DAMAGE BEFORE BEING ON MY BACK TO GIVE ME THE BEST CHANCE TO SURVIVE.,

I know, the best way is to join the grappling class, learning how to be on the guard and all that. Also, it's STUPID to even think like those kungfu people talking about moving this, doing that type of moves as they got their butts kicked since UFC and they never learn and just talk. I am talking about given the situation that people don't know grappling, this is the best chance to survive. That's all.

It is really unfair of the UFC and other competitions. If you are not allow to eyes gauging or hit at the back of the head, you literally give the advantage to the grappler. I AM SURE IF PEOPLE CAN DO THAT, THEY CAN KICK THE BUTTS OF THE GRAPPLERS IN COMPETITION. NOW YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE IN SHAPE, PRACTICING GRAPPLINGS AND DO EYES GAUGING.

OK, eyes gauging is too dangerous in competitions. Just let it legal to strike on the back of the head or the neck, that will really even up the competitions. At least there is a real take down defense. People that practice IRON PALM and other downwards striking can really do damage to the back of the head. Far as I concern, those MMA are really RICKED in favorite to the grapplers.

Also, how many times you see the grappler pushing the opponent against the fence trying to do the take down. If they allow to use REACH HAND to strike at the back of the neck, that will make them think twice to hold up in the position pushing the opponent against the fence by literally hugging the opponent and try to reach down for the legs. We learn to practice reach hand in TKD.

Whole MMA is ricked in favor of the grapplers. win bet romania

I think you're assuming the other person will leave their eyes available. A trained grappler is usually trying to control your arms before you ever get that opportunity.

 

[ArthurLockhart]

It depends. You can catch people off-guard in grappling, especially if what you do is not normally against the rules. However, a grappler is likely going to be trying to control your ability to put your hands near their face. In grappling, one of the biggest concepts is: where the head turns, the body follows. So the most basic defense while on bottom is to frame by putting your hand on their shoulder and your elbow under their chin. An experienced grappler isn't going to want this, so they're going to try to isolate your arms and prevent them from being used near their head - which is where their eyes are.

Grappling is a very complex sport and there's a lot of things to keep in mind in every position, and so it is possible to catch experienced grapplers. Personally, I've only been training BJJ for three years, but I've posted recently how one position tends to short-circuit even black belts into making mistakes, and recently I nearly caught my Professor (who's been training for 25 years) with a wicked wristlock. But, that wristlock was beautifully set up by me holding a position using concepts I've honed over the last 3 years, attacking a different submission, and setting up a feint of changing positions in order to trap his arm. It's not something I could do with 0 ground game.

https://vivatbet.ie/en/line/martial-arts​

The question I have is this: why are you too old to learn the ground game? Is it just your age? Are there injuries or limitations that truly affect you? Plenty of folks start BJJ later in life. You just need to listen to your body. Professor Rick Ellis has a youtube channel ("The Art of Skill") where he discusses how to train BJJ if you're over 40 years old. He's also written books and hosted seminars on the subject.

I think this is an important point that often gets overlooked. Techniques that sound simple in theory become much harder when someone trained is actively controlling your posture and your arms.

 

[skribs113 134]

I think this is an important point that often gets overlooked. Techniques that sound simple in theory become much harder when someone trained is actively controlling your posture and your arms.

And the counterpoint is: people often get lazy. I get caught by white belts all the time because I didn't respect their game until it was too late.

 

[Prince_Alarming114 144]

The problem with all the eye pokey, groin strikey bitey and pressure pointy stuff is this: If it does serious damage, you can't drill it in the gym. If you can't drill it, you can't apply it. Respectable martial art instruction revolves around techniques that can be practiced safely in the gym.

 

[isshinryuronin4 4]

The problem with all the eye pokey, groin strikey bitey and pressure pointy stuff is this: If it does serious damage, you can't drill it in the gym. If you can't drill it, you can't apply it. Respectable martial art instruction revolves around techniques that can be practiced safely in the gym.

I disagree. One can used controlled pressure, stopping the technique before contact or practicing on a bag using intent and visualization as if fully executing the technique. IMO, these are a part of "respectable MA." I'm confident of being able to bite an opponent if needed without having to drill it. The key is having the proper mental state to use such moves in an actual situation.

 

[Prince_Alarming114 144]

Don't challenge people to prove their point using your professional fighter. I am sure you can have someone kick my butt with one hand tie to his back because I am over 70. Talk about the opponent that is at the same level in the MMA fight. That little advantage of allowing to strike on the back of the head and neck WILL CHANGE THE COMPLETE DYNAMICS OF THE FIGHT.

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to discredit you, but this seems disingeuous because the one thing that really does change the dynamics of the fight is full contact, which has a much greater impact than any of the rules intoduced for safety- which we need. So that people don't get injured as badly, and so that society will allow us to keep doing what we do. Not that I'm saying you should train full contact all the time- which is something that even the MMA gym I attended briefly only did very rarely. I just think it's intellectually dishonest to gripe about minor rules while ignoring the heavyweight in the room.

 

[Prince_Alarming114 144]

I disagree. One can used controlled pressure, stopping the technique before contact or practicing on a bag using intent and visualization as if fully executing the technique. IMO, these are a part of "respectable MA." I'm confident of being able to bite an opponent if needed without having to drill it. The key is having the proper mental state to use such moves in an actual situation.

Fair enough. I can see that

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf114 145]

And the counterpoint is: people often get lazy. I get caught by white belts all the time because I didn't respect their game until it was too late.

I was teaching yesterday, and practicing a sidestep-block into a cat stance. Pretty much just drilling it on both sides repeatedly for a good few minutes. Had to tell a kid multiple times to not let his feet touch when he enters the cat stance.

Of course he catches me and points out the one time my feet touch as I'm doing the drill with them.