Street Effective

[MJS]

I've seen this term used a few times on this forum lately, so I thought I'd start a thread. Its been asked, as to whether or not certain arts are effective on the street. So, in your opinion, what makes something street effective?

IMO, I view all arts as having the potential to be street effective. How each person trains them, will be the deciding factor. Things that are important:

Having the RBSD flavor to them.

Being well rounded, meaning kicking, punching, clinch work, grappling, weapons.

Scenario training.

Training with some realism and aliveness.

Just a few things that came to my mind, and I'm sure there're others.

 

[AriesKai]

I've seen this term used a few times on this forum lately, so I thought I'd start a thread. Its been asked, as to whether or not certain arts are effective on the street. So, in your opinion, what makes something street effective?

IMO, I view all arts as having the potential to be street effective. How each person trains them, will be the deciding factor. Things that are important:

Having the RBSD flavor to them.

Being well rounded, meaning kicking, punching, clinch work, grappling, weapons.

Scenario training.

Training with some realism and aliveness.

Just a few things that came to my mind, and I'm sure there're others.

I agree. My only problem is that i'm still looking for the perfect mix for me.
I have a habit of wanting to grapple with Jujitsu (I'm a 1st Dan), take my opponent(s) to the ground, and execute/beat him as quickly as possible.
I would like to be well-rounded in all regards.

It should be accounted that more and more people (even the bullies) are paying buku bucks to train in these martial arts (mainly Muay Thai and BJJ), wanting to emulate the superstars they're seeing on TV. My interest (respectfully) is to learn how to defend myself, and my family against these bullies who are seeking out this training.

I've done my own fair share of training, and even cross training..
I'm just not really sure what suits me best.. even in 16+ years of practicing. It's extremely frustrating.

 

[MJS]

I agree. My only problem is that i'm still looking for the perfect mix for me.

My mix worked out well for me. Kenpo, Arnis, BJJ. All of the people I train with, cross train, so the other arts after Kenpo found me. They all blend together very well IMO. Guess it all depends on what you want. For example...many arts have weapons work in them. Kenpo has some great weapon defenses, but I feel that Arnis or any FMA, will further round that out, as that is primarily a weapon based art. Kenpo has takedown defenses, but I go to BJJ, to test my stuff and to get a better understanding of how a grappler works.

I have a habit of wanting to grapple with Jujitsu (I'm a 1st Dan), take my opponent(s) to the ground, and execute/beat him as quickly as possible.
I would like to be well-rounded in all regards.

And thats fine...as long as the situation allows it. In other words, I dont feel that grappling with someone in a crowded bar is the wisest thing to do. For me, should I end up on the ground, my goal isn't to look for a sub. or lock, but instead, escape and get back to my feet. If a choke, lock, etc. happens to present itself to me, and the situation allows me to take advantage of it, I will, but no, I'm not going to spend time looking for something, just for the sake of it.

It should be accounted that more and more people (even the bullies) are paying buku bucks to train in these martial arts (mainly Muay Thai and BJJ), wanting to emulate the superstars they're seeing on TV. My interest (respectfully) is to learn how to defend myself, and my family against these bullies who are seeking out this training.

This is why I advocate knowledge of the ground in your training. Wrestling is taught in many schools and colleges and MMA schools are a dime a dozen. I do have to question whether or not some street punk is actually going to invest time and money into training at a legit school.

I've done my own fair share of training, and even cross training..
I'm just not really sure what suits me best.. even in 16+ years of practicing. It's extremely frustrating.

You have to figure out what you want out of your training and then go from there.

Mike

 

[Flying Crane]

I do not agree that for something to be street effective it must include all kinds of fighting skills. Someone could be very very good at fighting with his hands for instance, and be able to defeat attackers who attempt to engage him no matter what their method or range.

If the person can get his tools to work in a chaotic situation, then it is street effective for him, even if he's got a small toolbox.

I think there can be a danger is having a tool box that is too big. Not enough time to practice everything to a level of competence, so everything ends up being mediocre.

 

[Telfer]

Practicing in street clothes is probably a good idea...esp the shoes!!!

Some people take the view that the most potent moves for the street are whatever is *illegal* in the ring.

They concentrate on that and little else.

 

[AriesKai]

My mix worked out well for me. Kenpo, Arnis, BJJ. All of the people I train with, cross train, so the other arts after Kenpo found me. They all blend together very well IMO. Guess it all depends on what you want. For example...many arts have weapons work in them. Kenpo has some great weapon defenses, but I feel that Arnis or any FMA, will further round that out, as that is primarily a weapon based art. Kenpo has takedown defenses, but I go to BJJ, to test my stuff and to get a better understanding of how a grappler works.




And thats fine...as long as the situation allows it. In other words, I dont feel that grappling with someone in a crowded bar is the wisest thing to do. For me, should I end up on the ground, my goal isn't to look for a sub. or lock, but instead, escape and get back to my feet. If a choke, lock, etc. happens to present itself to me, and the situation allows me to take advantage of it, I will, but no, I'm not going to spend time looking for something, just for the sake of it.





This is why I advocate knowledge of the ground in your training. Wrestling is taught in many schools and colleges and MMA schools are a dime a dozen. I do have to question whether or not some street punk is actually going to invest time and money into training at a legit school.



You have to figure out what you want out of your training and then go from there.

Mike

Another thanks. I think i'm beginning to understand more, thanks to all of you! :asian:

 

[AriesKai]

I do not agree that for something to be street effective it must include all kinds of fighting skills. Someone could be very very good at fighting with his hands for instance, and be able to defeat attackers who attempt to engage him no matter what their method or range.

If the person can get his tools to work in a chaotic situation, then it is street effective for him, even if he's got a small toolbox.

I think there can be a danger is having a tool box that is too big. Not enough time to practice everything to a level of competence, so everything ends up being mediocre.

Well.. I agree with you, but I also disagree with you.
I feel that if you train in a style of martial arts, or a good mix that compliments the other styles you're practicing, you're going to be a great fighter.
For example, If someone knows very good hand to hand combat in a style or mix of styles that includes using your entire body (taijutsu) as a weapon, with a style that defends against weapons, they're going to beat someone who simply knows how to be a good boxer.
I know this, because I tried to use only boxing against some martial artists during live training sessions and got my **** mopped up off the floor.
I feel that if you get a good boxer (mike tyson) against a good all-around mma fighter (chuck liddel) who knows some good 'street tactics' or techniques that would be utterly illegal in the ring, the mma fighter will most likely win due to the fact that he has more of an arsenal of attacks to use, and will know what to expect usually by the stance of his opponent..
Now this is just my opinion, maybe i'm wrong.
What I do know about fighting, is that the one who wins is the one who gains the upper advantage first.. Usually, that's going to be the MMA fighter if he's fighting against someone who only knows how to use his hands or feet.

By the way... I don't really like UFC or K-1; but I do like some of the fighters who participate (right now, it's Machida).

 

[AriesKai]

Well.. I agree with you, but I also disagree with you.
I feel that if you train in a style of martial arts, or a good mix that compliments the other styles you're practicing, you're going to be a great fighter.

Correction:

Well, depending on how you train...lol

 

[xJOHNx]

I can only speak for the art I practice now.
Jinenkan, despite the low stance which require a certain amout of flexibility of the clothes, I've come to realise that a few basic beginners can save me.

I train in low stance, yet every move can be done from normal stance (knee's extended). The first 6 months I was shown alot of wrist lock techniques, starting from someone grabbing my coat/pull-over. Today, those locks are still primitive, crude and with alot of power behind them. But I can already execute them quite fast (at least faster then in the beginning). So now I have arrived at the point of perfecting them (less powerdriven). Plus the kicks are waist high at the moment.

From budokaido and muay thai, I've learned good kicks. And more agressive techniques. Elbows, shins and knees. Should continue training them, but alas not enough time.

From shotokan, I kept the reflexes as well as basic punches (how to generate power through the hips).

From weight training/bodybuilding, I've learned to listen to my body as well as discipline.

Not all of the styles compliment eachother perfectly, but they make me a little bit more all round.
Other arts I dabbled in, gave me less. Or at least less practical I can think off at the moment. Or I didn't train long enough.

 

[Flying Crane]

Well.. I agree with you, but I also disagree with you.
I feel that if you train in a style of martial arts, or a good mix that compliments the other styles you're practicing, you're going to be a great fighter.
For example, If someone knows very good hand to hand combat in a style or mix of styles that includes using your entire body (taijutsu) as a weapon, with a style that defends against weapons, they're going to beat someone who simply knows how to be a good boxer.
I know this, because I tried to use only boxing against some martial artists during live training sessions and got my **** mopped up off the floor.
I feel that if you get a good boxer (mike tyson) against a good all-around mma fighter (chuck liddel) who knows some good 'street tactics' or techniques that would be utterly illegal in the ring, the mma fighter will most likely win due to the fact that he has more of an arsenal of attacks to use, and will know what to expect usually by the stance of his opponent..
Now this is just my opinion, maybe i'm wrong.
What I do know about fighting, is that the one who wins is the one who gains the upper advantage first.. Usually, that's going to be the MMA fighter if he's fighting against someone who only knows how to use his hands or feet.

By the way... I don't really like UFC or K-1; but I do like some of the fighters who participate (right now, it's Machida).

You are assuming that a boxer (your example) is going to defend himself like a boxer fights in the ring. As a self defense art, he needs to know how to deal with people who might attack him in different ways, such as with kicks or takedowns. But he can still defend himself against these attacks using the skillset of boxing. If he can do that, then it is "street effective" for him. And by the way, I do not buy into the notion that the average joe out looking to mug me is going to be highly trained in any martial art. That doesn't make him not dangerous. But the Royce Gracies and Chuck Liddels of the world aren't the ones looking to jump me for my lunch money.

I get kind of tired of the notion that we all need to add these different things to our art (grappling skills seems to be the current favorite), or we don't have Street viability. It's nonsense. NOTHING is street viable all by itself. ANYTHING can be street viable, if the person has the skills and training to use it as such, and even if the system comprises only a handful of high percentage techniques that work well in a variety of situations, and yes, even if he doesn't have actual grappling skills.

Certain situations MAY give the advantage to certain types of skillsets, but that doesn't mean someone with a different set of skills will automatically be defenseless in that same situation.

I believe it is a fallacy to think that the way to counter a grappler in a self defense situation is to add grappling to your curriculum. By doing so, you have decided that you need to out-grapple the grappler. That's one way of dealing with it, but if he is a dedicated grappler and you happen to be a TKD (for example) guy who "also" does some grappling, and you try to defeat his grappling with your "grappling", then you lose because he's better than you. The only time you need to out-grapple a grappler in order to defeat him is if you are in a grappling tournament and thems the rules you gotta follow. Otherwise, you use your methods to defeat his methods. You don't get suckered into playing his game, not when it is self defense and the only thing that matters is that you go home safe. You don't gotta be good enough to get him to submit, or choke him out. You just gotta be good enough to get away, evade his attacks, deliver some damage if necessary, and then get the hell out. Going home safe is all that matters in self defense. Defeating him doesnt' matter, altho it might fit into the picture, depending on circumstances.

It doesn't matter what your skillset is. All that matters is that you have trained it realistically and you are able to use it.

 

[frank raud]

"

I.

It should be accounted that more and more people (even the bullies) are paying buku bucks to train in these martial arts (mainly Muay Thai and BJJ),

What are "buku bucks"?

 

[AriesKai]

"


What are "buku bucks"?

"Buku" means "big". "Small" is sometimes "big" to others.

$150 a month to some, means 1/3 of their paycheck.. ect.

I'm not working, i'm a student at a community college, at the moment.
My wife is the only one who works, even though she makes good money (Registered Nurse).

 

[frank raud]

"Buku" means "big". "Small" is sometimes "big" to others.

$150 a month to some, means 1/3 of their paycheck.. ect.

I'm not working, i'm a student at a community college, at the moment.
My wife is the only one who works, even though she makes good money (Registered Nurse).

Thanks, never seen it spelled that way before. In Canada, the word would be spelled "beaucoup".

 

[AriesKai]

You are assuming that a boxer (your example) is going to defend himself like a boxer fights in the ring. As a self defense art, he needs to know how to deal with people who might attack him in different ways, such as with kicks or takedowns. But he can still defend himself against these attacks using the skillset of boxing. If he can do that, then it is "street effective" for him. And by the way, I do not buy into the notion that the average joe out looking to mug me is going to be highly trained in any martial art. That doesn't make him not dangerous. But the Royce Gracies and Chuck Liddels of the world aren't the ones looking to jump me for my lunch money.

I get kind of tired of the notion that we all need to add these different things to our art (grappling skills seems to be the current favorite), or we don't have Street viability. It's nonsense. NOTHING is street viable all by itself. ANYTHING can be street viable, if the person has the skills and training to use it as such, and even if the system comprises only a handful of high percentage techniques that work well in a variety of situations, and yes, even if he doesn't have actual grappling skills.

Certain situations MAY give the advantage to certain types of skillsets, but that doesn't mean someone with a different set of skills will automatically be defenseless in that same situation.

I believe it is a fallacy to think that the way to counter a grappler in a self defense situation is to add grappling to your curriculum. By doing so, you have decided that you need to out-grapple the grappler. That's one way of dealing with it, but if he is a dedicated grappler and you happen to be a TKD (for example) guy who "also" does some grappling, and you try to defeat his grappling with your "grappling", then you lose because he's better than you. The only time you need to out-grapple a grappler in order to defeat him is if you are in a grappling tournament and thems the rules you gotta follow. Otherwise, you use your methods to defeat his methods. You don't get suckered into playing his game, not when it is self defense and the only thing that matters is that you go home safe. You don't gotta be good enough to get him to submit, or choke him out. You just gotta be good enough to get away, evade his attacks, deliver some damage if necessary, and then get the hell out. Going home safe is all that matters in self defense. Defeating him doesnt' matter, altho it might fit into the picture, depending on circumstances.

It doesn't matter what your skillset is. All that matters is that you have trained it realistically and you are able to use it.

Ok, i've taken everything you've said and I agree.
I will tell you, though.. that around where "I" live (Dallas), there are teenagers learning these skills, teenagers that are much bigger and stronger than most people (I've met some 14 year old kids that are about 6'4 and 200+lbs that are solid muscle. perhaps steroids??), and they're taking up these BJJ and MT classes.
I've met some of these teens at Saekson Janjira's MT school, and they're quite good at the martial art. These kids are very cocky, very arrogant, and feel the need to be better than everyone else. These kids also tend to be the bullies.
Some think that just because a kid is 14+, that means they're weaker and/or have less capabilities than others. That is false, i've watched a 15 year old kid beat the hell out of a Marine 0311 (Infantryman) who 'kills for a living'. The Marine DID start the fight, trying to bully this kid, and the kid took up his offer. The police got called and the MARINE went to jail!!!

Anyhow... I agree with what you're saying about self defense.
I like to use lethal strikes (eye rakes, gouges, trachea chokes, ect), devastating and stunning strikes, with some grappling and takedown techniques. Why takedown and grapple techniques? Because I feel that if I slam this thug down on the pavement, gravel, or concrete, then he's going to be less-reluctant to fight, and will actually be hindered 90% of his mobility due to the position he's in (supine). I also know that if I obtain some grappling skill against multiple attackers, I'll be able to use this to my advantage in putting them in a line with each other.
Example:
"3 opponents rush at me. I take the one that's closest to me after putting them in a line as quickly as possible, and use him as a human sheild. This way, his buddies won't be able to attack me. If they go around me, execute the first man and take the next one, or get the hell out."

I think that having some good familiarization on the grapple game will help, versus being a sitting duck when someone is sitting on top of you, pounding your lights out, or puts you in a kimura.


Just my thought on the matter..

 

[AriesKai]

Thanks, never seen it spelled that way before. In Canada, the word would be spelled "beaucoup".

Well, I do believe the word was origionated in Vietnam, as the word was taken from the Vietnamese language.

The proper primary vowels in most asian countries are:

A (pronounced "ah")
E (pronounced "ay")
I (pronounced "ee")
O (pronounced with the long "O" sound)
U (pronounced "oo")

So that's why I spelled, "buku"!

Thanks for teaching me how Canada spells it as well!

 

[Flying Crane]

Ok, i've taken everything you've said and I agree.
I will tell you, though.. that around where "I" live (Dallas), there are teenagers learning these skills, teenagers that are much bigger and stronger than most people (I've met some 14 year old kids that are about 6'4 and 200+lbs that are solid muscle. perhaps steroids??), and they're taking up these BJJ and MT classes.
I've met some of these teens at Saekson Janjira's MT school, and they're quite good at the martial art. These kids are very cocky, very arrogant, and feel the need to be better than everyone else. These kids also tend to be the bullies.
Some think that just because a kid is 14+, that means they're weaker and/or have less capabilities than others. That is false, i've watched a 15 year old kid beat the hell out of a Marine 0311 (Infantryman) who 'kills for a living'. The Marine DID start the fight, trying to bully this kid, and the kid took up his offer. The police got called and the MARINE went to jail!!!

Anyhow... I agree with what you're saying about self defense.
I like to use lethal strikes (eye rakes, gouges, trachea chokes, ect), devastating and stunning strikes, with some grappling and takedown techniques. Why takedown and grapple techniques? Because I feel that if I slam this thug down on the pavement, gravel, or concrete, then he's going to be less-reluctant to fight, and will actually be hindered 90% of his mobility due to the position he's in (supine). I also know that if I obtain some grappling skill against multiple attackers, I'll be able to use this to my advantage in putting them in a line with each other.
Example:
"3 opponents rush at me. I take the one that's closest to me after putting them in a line as quickly as possible, and use him as a human sheild. This way, his buddies won't be able to attack me. If they go around me, execute the first man and take the next one, or get the hell out."

I think that having some good familiarization on the grapple game will help, versus being a sitting duck when someone is sitting on top of you, pounding your lights out, or puts you in a kimura.


Just my thought on the matter..

Having some familiarity with all ranges is certainly prudent. That's how you develop the skills with your methods to counteract what they might do to you. Having enough familiarity to understand what they might do to you, and how you can defeat it, is important and should be part of how you train your methods.

I'm just cautioning against the idea that you MUST have XYZ skills or else you do not have a "street effective" system. I just do not agree with that notion.

I also am not saying that you SHOULD NOT have XYZ skills, or that they are inherently a bad thing. If you like it, go for it. I just don't think it's a requirement in order to have viable system.

 

[Blindside]

Well, I do believe the word was origionated in Vietnam, as the word was taken from the Vietnamese language.

The proper primary vowels in most asian countries are:

A (pronounced "ah")
E (pronounced "ay")
I (pronounced "ee")
O (pronounced with the long "O" sound)
U (pronounced "oo")

So that's why I spelled, "buku"!

Thanks for teaching me how Canada spells it as well!

It is a French word, and the French have played a significant role in recent Vietnamese history, I'm guessing that is where the derivation is.

 

[AriesKai]

Having some familiarity with all ranges is certainly prudent. That's how you develop the skills with your methods to counteract what they might do to you. Having enough familiarity to understand what they might do to you, and how you can defeat it, is important and should be part of how you train your methods.

I'm just cautioning against the idea that you MUST have XYZ skills or else you do not have a "street effective" system. I just do not agree with that notion.

I also am not saying that you SHOULD NOT have XYZ skills, or that they are inherently a bad thing. If you like it, go for it. I just don't think it's a requirement in order to have viable system.

I see. Another thanks, again!!

What is a good system, or mix of styles where I can have:

1)Lethal techniques: eye rakes, gouges, trachea chokes, biting (if must), temple strikes, disabling and stunning techniques, limb breaking, and submissions

2)Good and powerful stand up techniques: kicking, punching, proper headbutting, elbows

3)Great standup defensive techniques against hand strikes/punches/ect, kicking, kneeing, clinching, headbutting, elbows

3)Great takedown techniques for offense and defense, with takedown defenses.

4)Great ground game; something I can use to gain the advantage just enough to get back up on my feet. The ground has it's hazards in real life.. such as gravel, rocks, pavement, ect..

4)Weapon defenses with disarms, lethal disarms, ect.

5)Lethal and non-lethal weapon offensive techniques


I do know that it will more than likely take years to learn all of this...
But I'm willing to give my full 110% committment. This is all something I will be able to pass onto my children, and them to theirs, ect..
I may even redefine these techniques as I go.

By the way, my motivation isn't just to defend myself.. I'm working on a career in law enforcement. I'm almost done with my degree. I'll also be returning to active duty (US Army) in July of this coming year. I got a discharge for misconduct, and am returning to the Army so I can try again.. a commendable thing to do. Civilian life is hard when you have bad military experience. I'll need to learn both lethal and non-lethal offensive and defensive techniques that'll help me in my career.
Pressure Point Control Techniques are NOT enough alone.. My stepfather was a police officer for over 20 years in SWAT and SRTs, and took up a modified form of TKD, and that was just barely enough for him.


Anyone got any good ideas?



What i've personally thought about:

Using my experience in traditional Jujitsu
Using my experience in Judo
Using my experience in Muay Thai
Using my experience in BJJ
Learning some more Karate (perhaps Shotokan?)
Learning more Kenpo
Learning more San Shou
Learning some more FMA (Kali/Escrima)
Learning some Aikido/Aikijutsu

Blending it all in one.


What do you think? Anyone else agree/disagree? Why? Why not?


Thanks for all input, everyone!!

 

[AriesKai]

It is a French word, and the French have played a significant role in recent Vietnamese history, I'm guessing that is where the derivation is.

Ohhh it is isn't it??

Yes, that does make sense. The French were at war with the Vietnamese for 20-something years..

The Vietnamese must have taken this word into their own vocabulary/slang. Perhaps this is why I spelled it, "buku"?

Just a thought..

 

[K-man]

If the person can get his tools to work in a chaotic situation, then it is street effective for him, even if he's got a small toolbox.

I think there can be a danger is having a tool box that is too big. Not enough time to practice everything to a level of competence, so everything ends up being mediocre.

When you're in the workshop (dojo) you can play with every tool from the 'toyshop'. When you're on the street the 'Leatherman' looks after most of your needs. KISS! :asian: