Question on defense against grappling in street fight

[Alan0354]

I know jujitsu grappling is very effective in UFC and other competition, easily beat striking MA by taking them down. I training in kick boxing long time ago and I am too old to train in ground game now. I was thinking about what to do in self defense on the street if I meet someone that do grappling.
From my understanding, grappling is effective in competition because of the rules of no eyes gauging and no hitting on the back of the head. BUT there is no rules in street fights. I think eyes gauging is the most effective for self defense against a grappler. If you look at the way the grappler tackle the opponent, their head will by around the chest or waist level of the opponent. For a second or two, I can easily reach the eyes with my hand and gauge the eyes.
Even if I get taken down and in guard position, it's natural to grab and hold onto the head of the person on top. I can still reach his eyes.
I just want to get opinion whether I am right or not. REMEMBER, I am talking about street fight with no rules, I think this is the weak point of grappling in real life. Please comment
thanks

 

[skribs135 155]

It depends. You can catch people off-guard in grappling, especially if what you do is not normally against the rules. However, a grappler is likely going to be trying to control your ability to put your hands near their face. In grappling, one of the biggest concepts is: where the head turns, the body follows. So the most basic defense while on bottom is to frame by putting your hand on their shoulder and your elbow under their chin. An experienced grappler isn't going to want this, so they're going to try to isolate your arms and prevent them from being used near their head - which is where their eyes are.

Grappling is a very complex sport and there's a lot of things to keep in mind in every position, and so it is possible to catch experienced grapplers. Personally, I've only been training BJJ for three years, but I've posted recently how one position tends to short-circuit even black belts into making mistakes, and recently I nearly caught my Professor (who's been training for 25 years) with a wicked wristlock. But, that wristlock was beautifully set up by me holding a position using concepts I've honed over the last 3 years, attacking a different submission, and setting up a feint of changing positions in order to trap his arm. It's not something I could do with 0 ground game.

The question I have is this: why are you too old to learn the ground game? Is it just your age? Are there injuries or limitations that truly affect you? Plenty of folks start BJJ later in life. You just need to listen to your body. Professor Rick Ellis has a youtube channel ("The Art of Skill") where he discusses how to train BJJ if you're over 40 years old. He's also written books and hosted seminars on the subject.

 

[HighKick]

I know jujitsu grappling is very effective in UFC and other competition, easily beat striking MA by taking them down. I training in kick boxing long time ago and I am too old to train in ground game now. I was thinking about what to do in self defense on the street if I meet someone that do grappling.
From my understanding, grappling is effective in competition because of the rules of no eyes gauging and no hitting on the back of the head. BUT there is no rules in street fights. I think eyes gauging is the most effective for self defense against a grappler. If you look at the way the grappler tackle the opponent, their head will by around the chest or waist level of the opponent. For a second or two, I can easily reach the eyes with my hand and gauge the eyes.
Even if I get taken down and in guard position, it's natural to grab and hold onto the head of the person on top. I can still reach his eyes.
I just want to get opinion whether I am right or not. REMEMBER, I am talking about street fight with no rules, I think this is the weak point of grappling in real life. Please comment
thanks

I believe a grappler is going to have the advantage in a street fight unless the adversary is a very good puncher/boxer while everything is in the normal, standing position. If the fight goes to the ground, the dynamic completely changes. A seasoned grappler or, more realistically, a seasoned street fighter who grapples will apply a submission/ending hold/strike/move before their eyes can be gouged. Or position themselves where it cannot be done, or a number of other options. In the realm of standing, out-fighting, there are kicks that can be an ending move, some even from the ground, but would not be my 'goto' move. More of in the tool bag.

Absolutely, if it is warranted an eye gouge is a valid move, but it must be done as a First move. This means situational awareness and summation of the encounter. It Extremely elevates the risk/reward variables.
This is a BIG reason why we are a hybrid TKD school that implements a Lot of wrestling into our program. I am also former LEO and our schools still work with law enforcement and EMS departments in three counties. SA and de-escalation is a Huge part of our training as well.
Aside to the topic, we also have a very robust competition sparring program in TKD. But it is completely separate from 'normal' classes.

 

[Prince_Alarming74 10]

For one thing, there ARE rules in 'thtw33t fites'. They are called 'the law'.
For another, grappling, even within jujitsu, does not take place exclusively on the ground
And then, you might not get a choice over whether to 'go to the ground' or not.
Sorry for being a bit short with you, but this seems like a leading question to me.

 

[Prince_Alarming74 10]

Then there's the fact that, on 'da thtw33t', grappling does not necessarily end in a submission. Many grappling techniques end with techniques that can cause serious damage to the body. Even an armbar can get nasty if you want it to.

 

[Kung Fu Wang137 167]

I think eyes gauging is the most effective for self defense against a grappler.

To be able to control your opponent's arms is the most important thing to do for a grappler. When your arms are controlled, eye gauging can be hard to do.

 

[windwalker099136 167]

Xu Xiaodong criticizes Muay Thai and BJJ in this clip, even joking that
on the ground someone could “just piss on you.” among other things.

In the systems I practiced over the years, the emphasis was always on getting off the ground, not staying there or treating it as a tactical advantage in a real-world context.

That said, in sportive or competitive environments, it would be a mistake not to have some knowledge or experience dealing with ground fighting.

From a Taiji perspective, with its emphasis on internal connection and structural integrity, a skilled practitioner may present fewer clear openings for a grappler to exploit while standing.

Within a rule set, this may present a problem for those unfamiliar in dealing with it.

" One year, a member of Gracie’s family from Brazil visited the park. Respect was exchanged between the two parties and the agreement on the rules were made. After three short rounds of free style pushing, Gracie went home with dirt on his back."

Of course with no rules, who ever is more skilled in what they do,,,will have the advantage...

As David Chin, mentioned " I always say ‘Whatever you do, I don’t want. Whatever I do and you don’t know – that’s how we win.'”

 

[Wing Woo Gar71 32]

Highly skilled people are generally not causing or involving themselves in street fights. There are exceptions of course. I don’t put much thought into this stuff. Better to just pay attention to your surroundings, most nonsense can and should be avoided. In any event, bullets and blades best eye gouges every time.

 

[HighKick]

To be able to control your opponent's arms is the most important thing to do for a grappler. When your arms are controlled, eye gauging can be hard to do.

Being in 'eye gouging range' can be uncomfortable for most people. Personal curtilage is a real thing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang137 167]

Arms wrapping is the most common thing to do for a grappler.

 

[skribs135 155]

For one thing, there ARE rules in 'thtw33t fites'. They are called 'the law'.

The law exists to prosecute the perpetrator after the fact. Not to protect the victim in the moment.

 

[drop bear136 11]

So.............

Why can't the guy who has taken you down, and is a better grappler.

Eye gouge you?

 

[marvin8]

I know jujitsu grappling is very effective in UFC and other competition, easily beat striking MA by taking them down. I training in kick boxing long time ago and I am too old to train in ground game now. I was thinking about what to do in self defense on the street if I meet someone that do grappling.
From my understanding, grappling is effective in competition because of the rules of no eyes gauging and no hitting on the back of the head. BUT there is no rules in street fights. I think eyes gauging is the most effective for self defense against a grappler. If you look at the way the grappler tackle the opponent, their head will by around the chest or waist level of the opponent. For a second or two, I can easily reach the eyes with my hand and gauge the eyes.
Even if I get taken down and in guard position, it's natural to grab and hold onto the head of the person on top. I can still reach his eyes.
I just want to get opinion whether I am right or not. REMEMBER, I am talking about street fight with no rules, I think this is the weak point of grappling in real life. Please comment
thanks

In the street, a grappler knows you can eye gouge and kick them in the groin and will try to avoid them. It’s not automatic for strikers to stop grapplers in MMA. Eye gouge is not useless. However, it requires fighting skills just as strikers do against wrestlers in MMA. Why do martial arts if you only need to practice eye gouge or groin kick (techniques)?

Eye gouging:

• Is not fake
• Is not useless
• But is not easy
• And does not bypass grappling skill

Just like strikes, it only works after you’ve earned the position—something wrestlers specialize in denying.

 

[_Simon_136 167]

This'll eeeasily push out to a 17 page thread.

Minimum.

 

[philwhite]

How many thugs looking for fights are BJJ experts who are going to take you down, arm bar you into submission and steal your wallet. I think most random attackers rely on size, numbers, and they select their victims. People who they think they have the advantage over.

I would say most people want nothing to do with the ground. Cement is hard. Grappling on cement is hard.

 

[Alan0354]

I believe a grappler is going to have the advantage in a street fight unless the adversary is a very good puncher/boxer while everything is in the normal, standing position. If the fight goes to the ground, the dynamic completely changes. A seasoned grappler or, more realistically, a seasoned street fighter who grapples will apply a submission/ending hold/strike/move before their eyes can be gouged. Or position themselves where it cannot be done, or a number of other options. In the realm of standing, out-fighting, there are kicks that can be an ending move, some even from the ground, but would not be my 'goto' move. More of in the tool bag.

Absolutely, if it is warranted an eye gouge is a valid move, but it must be done as a First move. This means situational awareness and summation of the encounter. It Extremely elevates the risk/reward variables.
This is a BIG reason why we are a hybrid TKD school that implements a Lot of wrestling into our program. I am also former LEO and our schools still work with law enforcement and EMS departments in three counties. SA and de-escalation is a Huge part of our training as well.
Aside to the topic, we also have a very robust competition sparring program in TKD. But it is completely separate from 'normal' classes.

Thanks for the reply

I have no illusion that I can prevent myself from taken to the ground. I don't know grappling, too old to practice that. I am talking about the easiest way to inflict max damage so even if I got taken to the ground, he would be in such pain and blind I can push him off with my strength. This is better than if he takes me down with full strength and sight.

If you look at all the take downs, mainly is of 2 different ways. Both will give me a second or two where his head will be within reach by my hands

1) go low, grab my legs and push me back to the ground. In this case, his head will be either on the left or right side at my waist level. It should be easy to reach his eyes with my hands and gauge him with everything I have.

2) tackle high grabbing my body and arms and hook one of my leg with his to trip me backwards to fell back on my back. If I hold my hands up like in usual boxing for defense. his head will be right where my hands are and I can easily gauge his eyes.

YES, I will be tripped to the ground. Without training and practice, I don't think there is a chance for me not to fell backwards on my back and he'll be on top of me. THAT KEY IS TO DO ALL THE DAMAGE BEFORE HITTING THE GROUND. HE'LL BE BLIND AND IN PAIN. I WILL HAVE A FIGHTING CHANCE.

I don't want to talk like all the "Martial artists" that "if you do this, I will do that" type of things. MAKE IT SIMPLE. I AM NOT PRACTICING IN SCHOOL, I WILL NEVER HAVE THE TECHNIQUE TO AVOID BEING TAKEN DOWN. THE KEY IS TO DO A LOT OF DAMAGE BEFORE BEING ON MY BACK TO GIVE ME THE BEST CHANCE TO SURVIVE.,

I know, the best way is to join the grappling class, learning how to be on the guard and all that. Also, it's STUPID to even think like those kungfu people talking about moving this, doing that type of moves as they got their butts kicked since UFC and they never learn and just talk. I am talking about given the situation that people don't know grappling, this is the best chance to survive. That's all.

It is really unfair of the UFC and other competitions. If you are not allow to eyes gauging or hit at the back of the head, you literally give the advantage to the grappler. I AM SURE IF PEOPLE CAN DO THAT, THEY CAN KICK THE BUTTS OF THE GRAPPLERS IN COMPETITION. NOW YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE IN SHAPE, PRACTICING GRAPPLINGS AND DO EYES GAUGING.

OK, eyes gauging is too dangerous in competitions. Just let it legal to strike on the back of the head or the neck, that will really even up the competitions. At least there is a real take down defense. People that practice IRON PALM and other downwards striking can really do damage to the back of the head. Far as I concern, those MMA are really RICKED in favorite to the grapplers.

Also, how many times you see the grappler pushing the opponent against the fence trying to do the take down. If they allow to use REACH HAND to strike at the back of the neck, that will make them think twice to hold up in the position pushing the opponent against the fence by literally hugging the opponent and try to reach down for the legs. We learn to practice reach hand in TKD.

Whole MMA is ricked in favor of the grapplers.

 

[drop bear136 11]

I think looking at modern MMA is a bit of a red herring because everyone has grappling. So grappling doesn't work as well.

Let's time travel back to when people had any grappling just demolished people with no grappling.

(OK Dan Severn was a good grappler. But still.)

 

[Alan0354]

In the street, a grappler knows you can eye gouge and kick them in the groin and will try to avoid them. It’s not automatic for strikers to stop grapplers in MMA. Eye gouge is not useless. However, it requires fighting skills just as strikers do against wrestlers in MMA. Why do martial arts if you only need to practice eye gouge or groin kick (techniques)?

Eye gouging:

• Is not fake
• Is not useless
• But is not easy
• And does not bypass grappling skill

Just like strikes, it only works after you’ve earned the position—something wrestlers specialize in denying.

I spent a few years in kick boxing long time ago, not an expert, but not a beginner. I also had a year in Judo when I was young. I still practicing on kicking bags. Also practice stick fight with a cane consistently in air and on kicking bags. I'm just too old to go to a grappling school now, so have to find the best way to defend myself.

 

[Buka45 2]

The grapplers I know are familiar with eye gauging and defending against them as well.
What trained fighter isn’t?

 

[Holmejr4 2]

You forgot about biting, scratching, hair pulling, ripping off ears, grabbing / crushing the throat and ripping out the heart and showing it to your opponent before he/she dies.
And stuff like that.