Sparring and TMA's

[CNida]

Ill start this rather general question with a disclaimer... I typically have no idea what I am talking about when it comes to any TMA. I have a rather basic idea of what most martial arts are about, but that's it.

I hear time and again about arts that don't do any sparring in their courses, or curriculum, or whatever you might call it. My question is: why not?

Is there a fundamental reason that a particular art would forbid sparring amongst students? To me, sparring seems like it should be one of the most important steps of training.

Step 1: Learn the technique
Step 2: Practice said technique at low speed against another student or on a practice dummy to get a feel for how it works
Step 3: Practice technique again at full speed in sparring to attempt to simulate the use of this technique in a realistic situation

This is how I was instructed when I dabbled in MMA and when I trained in US Army combatives.

Another question: Why is it frowned upon for a lower ranking student to ask a senior student to spar?

I can't remember exactly where I read this, but I have heard it from someone who has trained in martial arts for a long time. As a lower belt, you just don't invite a black belt to a sparring match. And not because you might get hurt, but because it is just against the rules. Why is that?


____________________________

"A man who has attained mastery of an art reveals it in his every action." - Anonymous

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Another question: Why is it frowned upon for a lower ranking student to ask a senior student to spar?

I don't know about junior student vs. senior student, but I do know that it's not proper for a student to ask his teacher to spar. We will all get old and sick someday. One day when you are 80 years old, your 20 year old student asks you for a sparring, will that be proper?

Sometime the junior student will learn from a senior studet instead of from the teacher. In that case, the senior student is the same as the teacher.

 

[seasoned]

Martial arts begins and ends with respect which should be part of any teaching in the dojo. This respect thing might save you a lot of grief when you're out and about some day..........

 

[Flying Crane]

I'll start by cautioning you against making blanket statements that there are "arts that don't do any sparring" when it might be that there are individuals, or schools that don't do it but that doesn't mean it is forbidden in the entire art. So recognize that what you are observing is specific examples that may not be representative of any art as a whole.

second, there are lots of different types of sparring. It ranges from highly structured and controlled on one end, to complete freeform fighting on the other, with lots and lots of methods that fall somewhere between these two extremes. Some of these methods, you might not recognize as "sparring" because they are different from the type of sparring that you are accustomed to.

Different kinds of sparring offer different benefits, but also come with their own problems. The more structured and controlled the sparring, the more one is able to keep a high level of integrity in their technique. The drawback is that it does less to help a student learn to deal with the chaos of a real fight. The more freeform the sparring is, the sloppier one's technique tends to become, but it helps a student learn to deal better with the chaos of a real fight, without freaking out. There are pros and cons of any method one might choose to incorporate.

I'd say that an instructor weighs these pros and cons and makes a decision about what he feels is the best method for his students. What are they trying to accomplish, and what is their level of commitment to training? If one wishes to be a successful full-contact or MMA type competitor, they will pursue the type of sparring that seems to accomplish those goals most readily. If one lacks interest in that kind of thing but still wishes to have some handy self defense skills and knowledge of the martial system under study, then other kinds of sparring might be more appropriate.

Since you mentioned spending some time in MMA, I suspect you are accustomed to a certain type of sparring that might differ from others. Don't make the mistake of thinking that MMA and full-contact competition is the Yardstick against which all martial arts must be measured. That is only one approach to training, and is not appropriate for those who have no interest in that aspect of the martial arts. Other kinds of training will satisfy the needs of other students who have other interests and goals. As long as the type of training accomplishes the desired goals, then they are valid, even if they differ from others.

hope this helps.

 

[CNida]

I didn't mean to sound disrespectful or make a blanket statement, I was just making a generic statement since I can't remember the particular art/school. I think it was an Aikido school but I'm not for certain and didn't want to make it sound like it was a pointed question.

As far as MMA sparring, it is the yardstick I use but only because it's all I really know. And even then, I am not even an amateur in my ability at practicing MMA.

But yes, when I say sparring I am actually referring to the freeform, chaotic stuff. That is just how I define sparring. I didn't mean to imply its the only way to spar.


____________________________

"A man who has attained mastery of an art reveals it in his every action." - Anonymous

 

[Flying Crane]

I didn't mean to sound disrespectful or make a blanket statement, I was just making a generic statement since I can't remember the particular art/school. I think it was an Aikido school but I'm not for certain and didn't want to make it sound like it was a pointed question.

As far as MMA sparring, it is the yardstick I use but only because it's all I really know. And even then, I am not even an amateur in my ability at practicing MMA.

But yes, when I say sparring I am actually referring to the freeform, chaotic stuff. That is just how I define sparring. I didn't mean to imply its the only way to spar.


____________________________

"A man who has attained mastery of an art reveals it in his every action." - Anonymous

sure, one's experiences will influence how one sees other things. That is normal. But be aware that there are other ways of doing things, and what you have experienced may not be the only way, or may not be the best way for others, depending on what their circumstances are.

as for Aikido, I don't know much about it but it's my understanding that they practice Randori, which is defense against opponents who attack one after another. It is structured to some degree, I do not believe it is complete freeform. But the practice is common in Aikido, so if you didn't see it, it might be that they didn't do it when you were there.

That's another thing to keep in mind: just because you didn't see it, doesn't mean they don't do it.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I don't know about junior student vs. senior student, but I do know that it's not proper for a student to ask his teacher to spar. We will all get old and sick someday. One day when you are 80 years old, your 20 year old student asks you for a sparring, will that be proper?

Sometime the junior student will learn from a senior studet instead of from the teacher. In that case, the senior student is the same as the teacher.

This is certainly not universal. I spar with my BJJ instructor all the time and either one of us may issue the invitation. Likewise, I spar with both junior and senior students and there is no protocol about who may issue the invitation.

 

[K-man]

I think it really depends on what you mean by sparring. If you mean pressure testing techniques, we all spar. If you mean the type of sparring you see in Karate tournaments or MMA, we don't all do that.
:asian:

 

[shima]

This is certainly not universal. I spar with my BJJ instructor all the time and either one of us may issue the invitation. Likewise, I spar with both junior and senior students and there is no protocol about who may issue the invitation.

I spar regularly with beginners and instructors alike (I teach as well here). For us it's a matter of learning to spar people of the same size as you, not avoiding people of higher rank. The only exception we make when sparring lower ranks is to not beat them bloody when they're still in the initial stages, we act more as targets for them when they first begin to spar and don't get aggressive until they get comfortable and are ready for it.

 

[Chris Parker]

Ill start this rather general question with a disclaimer... I typically have no idea what I am talking about when it comes to any TMA. I have a rather basic idea of what most martial arts are about, but that's it.

Cool... although, honestly, I'd be rather careful about even thinking you have a basic idea of what "most martial arts" are about... the scope is often a fair bit wider than most realise or recognise...

I hear time and again about arts that don't do any sparring in their courses, or curriculum, or whatever you might call it. My question is: why not?

Is there a fundamental reason that a particular art would forbid sparring amongst students? To me, sparring seems like it should be one of the most important steps of training.

Step 1: Learn the technique
Step 2: Practice said technique at low speed against another student or on a practice dummy to get a feel for how it works
Step 3: Practice technique again at full speed in sparring to attempt to simulate the use of this technique in a realistic situation

Flying Crane has covered a fair bit, and I'll get to it by expanding on his post in a bit, but to begin with, something you might not realise or be aware of... sparring is not a realistic situation. So, if your intention is realism, it's not really the best analogue. If, however, your intent is application within the same type of environment as sparring (competitive, typically), then it is.

This is how I was instructed when I dabbled in MMA and when I trained in US Army combatives.

Again, you need to recognise what the context of each method is.

Another question: Why is it frowned upon for a lower ranking student to ask a senior student to spar?

I can't remember exactly where I read this, but I have heard it from someone who has trained in martial arts for a long time. As a lower belt, you just don't invite a black belt to a sparring match. And not because you might get hurt, but because it is just against the rules. Why is that?

Whose rules?

My point is, that there isn't such a generic rule... it might be applied in one school, but that hardly means anything other than in that school. Personally, I always sought out my seniors, and encourage my students to do the same. Of course, there is a drawback for the seniors if that's all that happens, in that they have to scale things back in order to train with the more junior students... so they are encouraged to seek each other out when they want to take things up a notch.

I'll start by cautioning you against making blanket statements that there are "arts that don't do any sparring" when it might be that there are individuals, or schools that don't do it but that doesn't mean it is forbidden in the entire art. So recognize that what you are observing is specific examples that may not be representative of any art as a whole.

Then again, there absolutely are arts that don't do any sparring... in fact, some who don't allow it at all...

second, there are lots of different types of sparring. It ranges from highly structured and controlled on one end, to complete freeform fighting on the other, with lots and lots of methods that fall somewhere between these two extremes. Some of these methods, you might not recognize as "sparring" because they are different from the type of sparring that you are accustomed to.

Yep, absolutely agreed.

Different kinds of sparring offer different benefits, but also come with their own problems. The more structured and controlled the sparring, the more one is able to keep a high level of integrity in their technique. The drawback is that it does less to help a student learn to deal with the chaos of a real fight. The more freeform the sparring is, the sloppier one's technique tends to become, but it helps a student learn to deal better with the chaos of a real fight, without freaking out. There are pros and cons of any method one might choose to incorporate.

Hmm... honestly, though, I'd say it's the other way around.... provided, of course, that the more structured version is structured realistically.

I'd say that an instructor weighs these pros and cons and makes a decision about what he feels is the best method for his students. What are they trying to accomplish, and what is their level of commitment to training? If one wishes to be a successful full-contact or MMA type competitor, they will pursue the type of sparring that seems to accomplish those goals most readily. If one lacks interest in that kind of thing but still wishes to have some handy self defense skills and knowledge of the martial system under study, then other kinds of sparring might be more appropriate.

Agreed in that the training methods need to be appropriate to the goals, yep.

Since you mentioned spending some time in MMA, I suspect you are accustomed to a certain type of sparring that might differ from others. Don't make the mistake of thinking that MMA and full-contact competition is the Yardstick against which all martial arts must be measured. That is only one approach to training, and is not appropriate for those who have no interest in that aspect of the martial arts. Other kinds of training will satisfy the needs of other students who have other interests and goals. As long as the type of training accomplishes the desired goals, then they are valid, even if they differ from others.

And, completely agreed again.

I think it really depends on what you mean by sparring. If you mean pressure testing techniques, we all spar. If you mean the type of sparring you see in Karate tournaments or MMA, we don't all do that.
:asian:

Actually, just for the record, a number of arts pressure test without any form of sparring/free-form training at all... most commonly traditional weapon systems.

 

[K-man]

Actually, just for the record, a number of arts pressure test without any form of sparring/free-form training at all... most commonly traditional weapon systems.

Which is exactly why I phrased my response the way I did.

 

[Chris Parker]

Yeah, I was just picking up on the "we ALL spar" bit... that ain't true... in fact, out of the 5 major things I train in, only one of them has anything like sparring in it, and it's very removed from MMA/BJJ/TKD etc competitive sparring at all.

 

[K-man]

Yeah, I was just picking up on the "we ALL spar" bit... that ain't true... in fact, out of the 5 major things I train in, only one of them has anything like sparring in it, and it's very removed from MMA/BJJ/TKD etc competitive sparring at all.

Agreed, we do nothing like MMA, BJJ, TKD either. But we do pressure test our locks and holds, releases from chokes etc. We do practise defence against weapon attacks etc also. Is that sparring? Some may consider that type of testing to be sparring and in that case we spar, just not in the way most people understand sparring.
:asian:

 

[Chris Parker]

Sure, but again, our pressure testing isn't free-form, it's kata (paired). There's no free-form at all in either of my Kenjutsu systems, my Iai system, or my Kyudo. Not all of what I do in my Jujutsu-related things (the "Ninjutsu" classes) include it either... I actually do more in our modern self defence stuff, rather than the martial art side of things.

 

[SENC-33]

I train pure RBSD and rarely spar. I have found that it is better to attack pads aggressively than to spar with a friendly gesture that I certainly wouldn't have in a real situation. For pressure testing I have found the concepts of Systema to be very effective by slowing down, focusing on feel and allowing natural movement and instincts to take over. I can turn the switch on when I need to so I limit the sparring.

 

[K-man]

I train pure RBSD and rarely spar. I have found that it is better to attack pads aggressively than to spar with a friendly gesture that I certainly wouldn't have in a real situation. For pressure testing I have found the concepts of Systema to be very effective by slowing down, focusing on feel and allowing natural movement and instincts to take over. I can turn the switch on when I need to so I limit the sparring.

But how do you perform a wrist lock or a takedown on a pad? I can agree with your sentiment if 'sparring' is limited to striking or kicking. But even then the slow moves in Systema could be called sparring in a technical sense. Just it is not sparring as most people understand sparring.
:asian:

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I can agree with your sentiment if 'sparring' is limited to striking or kicking.

The title of this thread should be "sparring/wrestling and TMA" instead.

Step 2: Practice said technique at low speed against another student or on a practice dummy to get a feel for how it works.

In throwing art, the slow speed training is not proper. You need to give your opponent a chance to have a complete body rotation in order to have safe landing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0JEN_8RiXg&feature=youtu.be

I hear time and again about arts that don't do any sparring in their courses, or curriculum, or whatever you might call it. My question is: why not?

This is why we should look at MA from both striker and grappler point of views. Since we have never heard that a wrestler doesn't wrestle, it makes no sense for a striker not to spar.

 

[K-man]

This is why we should look at MA from both striker and grappler point of views. Since we have never heard that a wrestler doesn't wrestle, it makes no sense for a striker not to spar.

Purely from a Goju karate perspective, surprising though it might seem we don't use a lot of punches. We use lots of other strikes but all designed for close range. There is absolutely no value to us in sparring as you see in competition. At that range you don't have to fight. It is only in sport where you agree to fight at that range that competition like sparring is of value.
:asian:

 

[Chris Parker]

The title of this thread should be "sparring/wrestling and TMA" instead.

Why? As mentioned earlier in the thread, "sparring" can have many connotations, including grappling approaches (randori, rolling, shiai etc).

In throwing art, the slow speed training is not proper. You need to give your opponent a chance to have a complete body rotation in order to have safe landing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0JEN_8RiXg&feature=youtu.be

Garbage. I train throws slowly all the time. It enables me to take the time to ensure I'm breaking the opponent's balance properly, I'm in the correct position, I can control them through the entire action, and more. Training throws slowly is common, and good practice.

Here's some Judoka training throws slowly:

This is why we should look at MA from both striker and grappler point of views. Since we have never heard that a wrestler doesn't wrestle, it makes no sense for a striker not to spar.

No, it would make no sense for a striker not to strike. And there are plenty of grappling systems (locks, throws etc) that don't spar/wrestle (to use your terminology). I train in them.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Ill start this rather general question with a disclaimer... I typically have no idea what I am talking about when it comes to any TMA. I have a rather basic idea of what most martial arts are about, but that's it.

I assume based on your comment later in the post that your background is a little MMA and some US Army combatives. Any other arts?

I hear time and again about arts that don't do any sparring in their courses, or curriculum, or whatever you might call it. My question is: why not?

Define what you mean by sparring; do you mean 'sparring' as two participants having an unscored practice bout that goes on for a set amount of time within a specified rule set? Also, look at the purpose of sparring and the arts that make the most use of it. Arts that involve non lethal dueling (Boxing, Wrestling, Taekwondo, MMA, etc.), arts that are a part of some organized athletics program (Boxing, Taekwondo, Shotokan, Wrestling, Kendo, Fencing) all benefit from sparring because of their format, while sparring is also used to foster a competitive spirit. That is the real reason that sports like wrestling, BJJ, Kendo, and even Football are practiced in environs where those skills are relatively unimportant, such as the army or the police department.

They also allow for a physical outlet and release of tension. Not every aspect of every fighting system has a direct correlation to real world combat. The military does conduct combat simulations, but these are not sparring. Learning to duel, with or without a weapon, contributes little to nothing to one's ability to be a soldier or one's ability to defend themselves.

Is there a fundamental reason that a particular art would forbid sparring amongst students? To me, sparring seems like it should be one of the most important steps of training.

Step 1: Learn the technique
Step 2: Practice said technique at low speed against another student or on a practice dummy to get a feel for how it works
Step 3: Practice technique again at full speed in sparring to attempt to simulate the use of this technique in a realistic situation

This is how I was instructed when I dabbled in MMA and when I trained in US Army combatives.

And this is generally now those non-sparring arts instruct. The disconnect is this: sparring is not necessary to practice techniques at full speed, nor is it a realistic situation by any means.
UNLESS you are preparing for tournament fighting (MMA, TKD, Boxing, etc.).

Arts that do not have sparring have other, actually older, methods of pressure testing techniques at speed. Methods that are actually more effective than sparring for preparing students for self defense in a non competitive environment.

Again, learning to duel, with or without a weapon, contributes little to nothing to one's ability to defend themselves outside of a tournament//duelling setting.

Another question: Why is it frowned upon for a lower ranking student to ask a senior student to spar?

I can't remember exactly where I read this, but I have heard it from someone who has trained in martial arts for a long time. As a lower belt, you just don't invite a black belt to a sparring match. And not because you might get hurt, but because it is just against the rules. Why is that?

While there is no pan-TMA rule against it, it is a matter of courtesy and respect. Most schools where I have trained with have sparring generally have a format of pairing people during class time. Thus you may get to spar a black belt or a senior student as a part of that, be it direct paring by the teacher or simply the course of the rotation. Going up to a black belt and 'inviting' him or her to spar could be viewed in the context of some kind of pecking order challenge.

Doing so with the instructor could be viewed as a challenge to his or her authority. Keep in mind that these conventions go back to a time before the arts were commercialized and had become a part of mainstream culture.

But more than just that, it's a matter of maintaining a level of politeness in the environment.