Parents who train vs. parents who don't

[skribs108]

One of the things I'm starting to notice is a huge difference in the mentality towards a martial arts school for parents of children attending it, depending on if they train at the school as well or if they don't.

Parents who also train tend to look at the gym more as a family. They tend to look at what they can put into the gym and have a better appreciation for what they and their kids get out of the gym. They understand the training process and how it works. They understand the culture of what's acceptable and what's not.

Then you've got the parents that don't train. Some different attitudes I've seen:

• Surprise that their kid isn't perfect yet. Mostly from kids that have been with us a few weeks to a few months.
• Show the kids techniques they learned in martial arts classes that aren't allowed in this one and expect them to use it in class.
• Expect kids to "win" at sparring and put a lot of pressure on them for it. Even worse when the kid is trying to listen to the coach and train at sparring.
• Encourage their kid to "defend themself" (aka retaliate) in class if another kid is too rough, which often leads to escalations.
• Try to dictate who their kid can or can't train with, or what types of techniques their kid should or shouldn't be learning by now.

When one of our former members (in the adult class) left the gym, his favorite training partner was rather upset. Our Professor explained to him that there are students and there are customers. Customers come in and want a specific thing, in this guy's case he just wanted to wrestle and smash white belts. But a student is someone who's there to learn without an ego about it.

I kinda feel the same with the parents. There's students (those parents that train in the evening) and there's customers (those parents that just bring kids to learn martial arts, don't participate, but yet think they know better than the coaches how the martial art should work and how we should teach it).

 

[windwalker099109]

Would the same be true in a boxing, Judo, or BJJ gym?

I think part of it is that parents who train understand the process, while many parents who do not train are primarily focused on the outcome they hope their child will get.

When something is labeled a "martial art," some parents may assume it is primarily teaching a child how to fight, even if they never directly say so.

Years ago, a father approached me after seeing my practice in a park. His son had been attending a local Wushu school, but the father felt he was not learning what he expected.

Initially, I taught the boy a variation of methods drawn from White Crane and Taiji, thinking it would be the quickest path I knew toward practical fighting ability. Over time, however, it became clear that neither the amount of training required nor the boy's character and interests were really aligned with that goal.

In the end, I shifted the focus toward Taiji itself: whole-body movement, releasing unnecessary tension, balance, awareness, and learning how to work with the body more efficiently.

Looking back, I think those lessons will serve him better than trying to make him into something he was not

The better lesson: how not to fight.

---

 

[skribs108]

Would the same be true in a boxing, Judo, or BJJ gym?

This is a BJJ gym.

I noticed it less in TKD, but I think that's more a factor that TKD has a rote curriculum and there's more overt discipline in the culture.

But even then, I remember parents complaining:

• One parent, their kid got knocked over during sparring and fell into something, they were mad. (Their kid was fine).
• Another parent, we were doing freestyle sparring (kinda like MMA sparring) and I had a headlock. The guy was upset that I have his 15-year-old in a chokehold. Nevermind that there was no choke, and he knew very well how to tap if there was.

 

[windwalker099109]

One of the things I'm starting to notice is a huge difference in the mentality towards a martial arts school for parents of children attending it, depending on if they train at the school as well or if they don't.

No mention of what style or method… unless I missed it.

My point was that if one has kids in a boxing, judo, BJJ gym, etc., it seems that whether the parents participate, have trained, or not, they would understand the expected outcome. They should know their child is learning a method, regardless of intended or expected use.

If one is learning something labeled as "martial arts," the general implication is that it is something useful or intended to be used for fighting.

 

[drop bear109]

Our head coach is kind of a son of a *****. And I think that reigns in a lot of the parental issues.

 

[Darren]

Would the same be true in a boxing, Judo, or BJJ gym?

I think part of it is that parents who train understand the process, while many parents who do not train are primarily focused on the outcome they hope their child will get.

When something is labeled a "martial art," some parents may assume it is primarily teaching a child how to fight, even if they never directly say so.

Years ago, a father approached me after seeing my practice in a park. His son had been attending a local Wushu school, but the father felt he was not learning what he expected.

Initially, I taught the boy a variation of methods drawn from White Crane and Taiji, thinking it would be the quickest path I knew toward practical fighting ability. Over time, however, it became clear that neither the amount of training required nor the boy's character and interests were really aligned with that goal.

In the end, I shifted the focus toward Taiji itself: whole-body movement, releasing unnecessary tension, balance, awareness, and learning how to work with the body more efficiently.

Looking back, I think those lessons will serve him better than trying to make him into something he was not

The better lesson: how not to fight.

---

heard there where types of people:
1.the ones that can teach.
2.the ones that can fight.
3.the ones that can do both.

 

[skribs108]

As you can tell, this thread is a bit of a vent. I do like the way my Professor handles these things. Essentially, one of the parents sent him a laundry list of complaints. (Which is frustrating, because the kid in question is one of my favorite students, so why does their parent have to be like this?). I'm paraphrasing a bit here, but my Professor's attitude was basically:

• Complaint #1: Valid, we'll address it.
• Complaint #2: Yeah, we know, and we're addressing it.
• Complaint #3: Psssh. Yea...naw.

He was obviously more diplomatic with the parent, but that's the general vibe I got. I really respect that he's able to look at the feedback and filter what to accept and what to ignore. A lot of folks will either bend over backwards for every complaint, or will just reject all feedback.

 

[HighKick1]

One of the things I'm starting to notice is a huge difference in the mentality towards a martial arts school for parents of children attending it, depending on if they train at the school as well or if they don't.

Parents who also train tend to look at the gym more as a family. They tend to look at what they can put into the gym and have a better appreciation for what they and their kids get out of the gym. They understand the training process and how it works. They understand the culture of what's acceptable and what's not.

Then you've got the parents that don't train. Some different attitudes I've seen:

• Surprise that their kid isn't perfect yet. Mostly from kids that have been with us a few weeks to a few months.
• Show the kids techniques they learned in martial arts classes that aren't allowed in this one and expect them to use it in class.
• Expect kids to "win" at sparring and put a lot of pressure on them for it. Even worse when the kid is trying to listen to the coach and train at sparring.
• Encourage their kid to "defend themself" (aka retaliate) in class if another kid is too rough, which often leads to escalations.
• Try to dictate who their kid can or can't train with, or what types of techniques their kid should or shouldn't be learning by now.

When one of our former members (in the adult class) left the gym, his favorite training partner was rather upset. Our Professor explained to him that there are students and there are customers. Customers come in and want a specific thing, in this guy's case he just wanted to wrestle and smash white belts. But a student is someone who's there to learn without an ego about it.

I kinda feel the same with the parents. There's students (those parents that train in the evening) and there's customers (those parents that just bring kids to learn martial arts, don't participate, but yet think they know better than the coaches how the martial art should work and how we should teach it).

I can't really tell where you are trying to go with this.

Fact 1:
If you are a for-profit school/gym, everyone is a customer, that includes the parents who are paying for their kids. It is the clientele that you have to keep happy if you want your business to survive, let alone thrive.

Fact 2:
Many parents think their kid is going to be the next "Michael Jordon", no matter what sport we are talking about. It is a good thing that an instructor needs to learn to use to their advantage. A motivator that must be managed on both sides by the instructor.

Fact 3:
Many parents who start working out with their kid(s) still think the same way and some get even worse, pushing their kids during class. I have seen it get bad enough that I had to intervene.

Fact 4:
Almost everyone becomes a sideline coach from time to time.

It concerns me the way you frame people in this post. When you 'identify' someone as a customer (Not a student) do you write them off and stop investing the same amount of time and energy into them as others? That hardly seems fair and very problematic.

I have always tried very, very hard not to have a universal 'measuring stick'. Training is an individual journey. The only measuring stick that matters is the one that starts on EACH persons first day of training and how they progress from there. This is SO very different for everyone.
Applying this to kids can blur somewhat because most kids are injury free Gumby's who can move without pain and the bigger battle for them is usually in the mental realm. But the process still applies. Some kids are just going to progress better/faster than others.
Adding the parent quotient into this is just part of the business. Every instructor must learn how to listen, really listen to the parent and show genuine interest. If you don't already have a good information system/packet that every parent gets, I highly recommend you create one. It can be a fantastic and accurate deferral tool when parents get snippy or do not understand (which is often).
Lastly, it is a business where attrition is just part of the process. It sounds like the same people are regularly paired together and if/when a person leaves it can create an emotional gap. Can you rotate partners? If not, it is on you as the instructor to fill the gap with a new partner and help build the relationship.

I have no idea if any of this will help.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I can't really tell where you are trying to go with this.

Fact 1:
If you are a for-profit school/gym, everyone is a customer, that includes the parents who are paying for their kids. It is the clientele that you have to keep happy if you want your business to survive, let alone thrive.

Fact 2:
Many parents think their kid is going to be the next "Michael Jordon", no matter what sport we are talking about. It is a good thing that an instructor needs to learn to use to their advantage. A motivator that must be managed on both sides by the instructor.

Fact 3:
Many parents who start working out with their kid(s) still think the same way and some get even worse, pushing their kids during class. I have seen it get bad enough that I had to intervene.

Fact 4:
Almost everyone becomes a sideline coach from time to time.

It concerns me the way you frame people in this post. When you 'identify' someone as a customer (Not a student) do you write them off and stop investing the same amount of time and energy into them as others? That hardly seems fair and very problematic.

I have always tried very, very hard not to have a universal 'measuring stick'. Training is an individual journey. The only measuring stick that matters is the one that starts on EACH persons first day of training and how they progress from there. This is SO very different for everyone.
Applying this to kids can blur somewhat because most kids are injury free Gumby's who can move without pain and the bigger battle for them is usually in the mental realm. But the process still applies. Some kids are just going to progress better/faster than others.
Adding the parent quotient into this is just part of the business. Every instructor must learn how to listen, really listen to the parent and show genuine interest. If you don't already have a good information system/packet that every parent gets, I highly recommend you create one. It can be a fantastic and accurate deferral tool when parents get snippy or do not understand (which is often).
Lastly, it is a business where attrition is just part of the process. It sounds like the same people are regularly paired together and if/when a person leaves it can create an emotional gap. Can you rotate partners? If not, it is on you as the instructor to fill the gap with a new partner and help build the relationship.

I have no idea if any of this will help.

Yes, whoever is paying the bill is the customer and effort should be made to keep them happy within reason. It becomes a bit more complex when the student is a kid - now you've got two parties to keep happy because in many cases, if the kid's not happy, the parent won't be happy.

I think there are two main groups of parents: Those that take their kid to class for playtime and/or babysitting (and if the kid learns something, it's a bonus). The second kind really thinks the training is valuable for the kid to have, either for discipline or self-defense. This kind of parent will be less affected by the kid's feelings about going to class and may actually want the kid to be pushed a bit and "toughened up." It's up to the instructor to make sure it doesn't go beyond a limit. It is the instructor's school, and he/she is the sole authority.

The instructor must listen, as you stress, and make sure everyone knows the expectations and goals for the student and how the teacher will go about realistically meeting them. IMO, this is vital for a successful relationship.

As for rotating partners, I think this is a must. A big kid (or adult) paired with a little one will teach something to both of them. The big one will learn control, gentleness and knowing the purpose is for all to learn. The little one will learn how to trust his classmate and deal with a bigger opponent, building his confidence. (I had a huge problem prior to blackbelt learning how to deal with guys having a super long reach and how to get inside). It goes without saying the instructor makes sure the bigger one understands his role - no one abused their size or ego in my classes.

 

[skribs108]

It concerns me the way you frame people in this post. When you 'identify' someone as a customer (Not a student) do you write them off and stop investing the same amount of time and energy into them as others? That hardly seems fair and very problematic.

For the purpose of this post, I'm talking about the parents. They don't have any affect on how I treat the kid, except if the parent highlights something (i.e. "my kid got in trouble at school today") and asks me to address it. In general, I'm going to coach how I'm going to coach.

In this kind of situation, it gets frustrating when now I have to figure out how to politically tell this to the parent.

With adult members, it's a slightly different dynamic. A "customer" in this case is typically one who does their own thing despite what is being taught. We're learning guard sweeps today? Great. They're going to wrestle and smash. We're doing a king-of-the-hill session where the "king" starts seated? Great! They're going immediately stand up and then wrestle and smash. They're rolling with a coach and coach says not to leave the arm there? They're going to try and prove that it's not in danger and get armbarred over and over again. They're rolling with someone new and asked to slow down and help them out? You guessed it...they're going to wrestle and smash.

The adult members that do this (my Professor's original comment, which I'm adapting to the parents that are just customers) aren't listening to the advice or following the training plan anyway. So why waste energy trying to make it work?

I'll give another example from my cardio kickboxing class. One guy has boxing experience and supposedly has hundreds of fights.

• During warmups, he's complaining the rest is too long. But his "jumping jacks" are just lifting one leg at a time. Then during ab work, he's complaining that the rest is too short because he's old.
• If I stick to the basics, he says, "I already know this, I want you to teach me something." But if I get creative, "Well, I wouldn't do that, I'd just stick to the basics."
• He's got bad hips, so kicking is something that's very difficult for him. So if I have a lot of kicks, he'll just do whatever to get some work in. But if I instead focus on hands so that he can do the combos...he still just does whatever he's going to do. I say power 1-2s, he's doing tippy-tap hooks and uppercuts.

At this point, why would I adjust my class based on his feedback? I've tried across three different categories (pacing, basics vs. advanced, avoiding kicks) and every time he just complains, argues, or has some excuse. I'm just not going to worry about it.

 

[windwalker099109]

If I stick to the basics, he says, "I already know this, I want you to teach me

good….put him in the ring, help him understand what he feels he knows vs what he does not….do this a couple of times, He will either leave or start working on what he really doesn’t know…

 

[Flying Crane]

In retail or business, there is the concept that the customer is always right. Meaning that you want to do everything you can to keep the customer happy because that keeps the money coming in.

When teaching a skill like a martial art, this potentially creates a conflict. The customer does not yet know the skill and it is your job to teach him. He doesn’t even know what it is that he doesn’t know, and doesn’t know how to get there. So he needs to trust the teacher.

In this case, the customer is not always right, if you don’t want to risk compromising the quality of the training, or at least the focus of the training that you offer. The customer thinks he knows better than the teacher on how to train, or decides he wants something that the schools does not offer.

This is what I teach, this is what I offer and this is the methodology that I use. If what you want is something different from that, you need to go elsewhere. And I need to not be afraid to lose the income that person represents. That is where the potential conflict lies, with the business side of all of this. You can’t let “the customer is always right” lead to compromises in quality or changing the school into something you didn’t intend for it to be. The customer most definitely is not always right.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I'll give another example from my cardio kickboxing class. One guy has boxing experience and supposedly has hundreds of fights.

• During warmups, he's complaining the rest is too long. But his "jumping jacks" are just lifting one leg at a time. Then during ab work, he's complaining that the rest is too short because he's old.
• If I stick to the basics, he says, "I already know this, I want you to teach me something." But if I get creative, "Well, I wouldn't do that, I'd just stick to the basics."
• He's got bad hips, so kicking is something that's very difficult for him. So if I have a lot of kicks, he'll just do whatever to get some work in. But if I instead focus on hands so that he can do the combos...he still just does whatever he's going to do. I say power 1-2s, he's doing tippy-tap hooks and uppercuts.

At this point, why would I adjust my class based on his feedback? I've tried across three different categories (pacing, basics vs. advanced, avoiding kicks) and every time he just complains, argues, or has some excuse. I'm just not going to worry about it.

You've got a right to be frustrated with this guy. As teachers/coaches, we want the student to do well, but we can't do the work for them. Personally, I would handle a guy like this by taking him aside and saying, "WTF are you doing here?! I know you can do better. Let's up the effort a little and set an example for the younger guys. Show me the fighting machine inside you!" Then pat him on the back.

If that doesn't work, or you no longer want to waste time with him, put him in the back of the class and let him do whatever, as long as he's not disruptive.

 

[skribs108]

good….put him in the ring, help him understand what he feels he knows vs what he does not….do this a couple of times, He will either leave or start working on what he really doesn’t know…

It's cardio kickboxing.

 

[HighKick1]

It's cardio kickboxing.

Jazzercise. Got it.

Jokes aside. There are some things you just have to ignore and keep class moving. They usually go away on their own if you don't give them any space or awareness.

 

[PhotonGuy9]

One of the things I'm starting to notice is a huge difference in the mentality towards a martial arts school for parents of children attending it, depending on if they train at the school as well or if they don't.

Parents who also train tend to look at the gym more as a family. They tend to look at what they can put into the gym and have a better appreciation for what they and their kids get out of the gym. They understand the training process and how it works. They understand the culture of what's acceptable and what's not.

Then you've got the parents that don't train. Some different attitudes I've seen:

• Surprise that their kid isn't perfect yet. Mostly from kids that have been with us a few weeks to a few months.
• Show the kids techniques they learned in martial arts classes that aren't allowed in this one and expect them to use it in class.
• Expect kids to "win" at sparring and put a lot of pressure on them for it. Even worse when the kid is trying to listen to the coach and train at sparring.
• Encourage their kid to "defend themself" (aka retaliate) in class if another kid is too rough, which often leads to escalations.
• Try to dictate who their kid can or can't train with, or what types of techniques their kid should or shouldn't be learning by now.

Well that depends, it depends on the situation. Do the parents watch their children train? Sometimes the parents might just drop their children off at the dojo and then go about their business, only coming back to pick the children up when the class ends for the day. Sometimes the children go to the dojo themselves without their parents driving them there (walking or riding their bicycles.) The student Miguel started training under Johnny Lawrence without his mom even knowing at first because he knew his mom wouldn't approve of it (even though his mom eventually found out and had a change of heart later on.)

When one of our former members (in the adult class) left the gym, his favorite training partner was rather upset.

Well that's the thing about martial arts classes, there is a very high turnover rate, That's what I've seen, from my experience.

Our Professor explained to him that there are students and there are customers. Customers come in and want a specific thing, in this guy's case he just wanted to wrestle and smash white belts. But a student is someone who's there to learn without an ego about it.

That's one point of view but if somebody is paying for lessons they're a customer. So a student would be a customer too, in a sense.

I kinda feel the same with the parents. There's students (those parents that train in the evening) and there's customers (those parents that just bring kids to learn martial arts, don't participate, but yet think they know better than the coaches how the martial art should work and how we should teach it).

Many sports coaches don't want the parents to get involved, and martial arts instructors might sometimes be the same way. It should really be up to the child, if their heart is in it.

 

[skribs108]

Jazzercise. Got it.

Jokes aside. There are some things you just have to ignore and keep class moving. They usually go away on their own if you don't give them any space or awareness.

Thing is, up until very recently, we had a Muay Thai class. He could've done that.

 

[Kemposhot]

While I’m not an owner or official teacher, ive been training in my current dojo for 19 years. Ive seen a lot of people, adults and kids come and go during that time.

I have had parents who join up while their kids are also in the school. In some cases, it’s a good gateway to bring in more adult students and some of the parents are very interested in learning and make great students and it turns into a nice joint family activity.

The bigger issues I’ve seen tend to come from child students who are enrolled in other sports. Especially during the summer months where it seems many kids leave to go play other sports, some come back in the fall and some don’t. If a parent is training, I’ve noticed that they tend to be more consistent because the kids have the parents pushing them to continue as well.

We have a strict no asking for a test policy when looking at the next belt rank. It tends to work but you always get the one or two parents that push for it anyway. It’s a difficult balance when a school is for profit.

 

[skribs108]

Especially during the summer months where it seems many kids leave to go play other sports, some come back in the fall and some don’t.

I don't worry about this too much. As long as the kid is still active.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf109]

Who is going to a cardio kickboxing class and trying to learn new things, rather than drill the basics at a good clip? That's the opposite of what those classes are for.