Skip Dan promotions, when is it ok?

dortiz

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Skipping Kyu ranks? thats bad, each one is an important step in the students knowledge. Dan ranks not so much. Read your history, Dan ranks have always been about senority, not skill."

I am saving this one for my feel better line. I have gone white to Bo black 4 times completely in order to learn each schools system properly with no skipping. Thats just in TKD : )
 

exile

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Folksit would be better for everyone to keep the personal confrontations and reactions to a minimum, eh? No need to get hot under the collar; let's just assume no one is insulting anyone else, and try to phrase things so that that's clear. Ideas, organizations and practices often merit criticism (and praise, as well), and that's fine; so is defending those things. As long as it stays there, no one need get his or her back up.
 

StuartA

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under what circumstances would you say it is ok to promote someone and to skip them over a rank.

For example, they are a 2nd, testing for 3rd and you promote them to 4th

when is this ok?
Without reading the whole thread (I'll do that after posting lol).. my answer... never!

Stuart
 

StuartA

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Read the whole thread and with the exception of someone falling under an unscrupulous instructor... I still say never!

Stuart
 

dortiz

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Well I agree. I also got screamed at by a Korean G.M. thinking I was a spy or something pretending to be a low belt. I explained that I just never pursued testing due to job relocation's and that I really wanted to earn his BBelts in order and to get his help with Kukkiwon recognition. After watching me for a while and seeing that I knew all the forms he threw me out.

So I get what some folks are talking about. At the same time that I think cool a chance to earn what may help me should I need that recognition later.
I think in the end those of us that fell out of the systems or like here in the states that got teacher certs but never Kukkiwons will never be able to validate it in this setting. truth is if its crap who cares...how emberrasing to have a rank and look like fool on the floor. I have always been happy to wear any belt and hang with the highest rank I can find on the floor. Heck, for years I had a plain BBelt I wore so I could go to the BBelt level sparring. Thats all I cared about.

I hope if the Kukkiwon keeps them that they are strict and earned and if not please make it go away.

Dave O.
 

chrispillertkd

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Skipping dan levels? Never. I have seen gup ranks test and do such a good job that a very few of them were double promoted (going from 6th to 4th gup, for example). They still had to learn the material for the rank they had skipped, of course, and their next promotion took longer than usual so they eventually ended up taking about the same amount of time as students who didn't double promote to reach I dan.

Heck, I know of one woman who tested from 10th or 9th gup to 4th gup! In her situation her husband was her instructor and he just never tested her for promotion so people wouldn't think she was just having it awarded to her. He had a visiting examiner in who tested her and she did such an excellent job that he promoted her to blue belt. She is phenomenal and I have no doubt that she was beating opponents in sparring who were much her senior during her test! But she trained for a loooong time before even being tested in the first place.

As for dan skipping, some people have mentioned being under and unscrupulous instructor. But if time in rank isn't the only requirement, but being taught the material for the rank that is to be skipped (as some people have stated) then I have to ask why they'd be testing in the first place? If you're under an unscrupulous instructor who isn't going to test you when you think you're ready why is he going to teach you the required material in the first place? I tested for V dan last year after being a IV dan for 8 years (under a fine and ethical instructor!). But I didn't know So-San or Se-Jong (V dan patterns in the ITF) before I tested. If one's instructor is unscrupulous shouldn't there be more to it than simply taking a long time between degrees (especially if you're being taught advanced technique anyway)?

I guess I understand the argument in theory, but I just don't see the need for it in practice.

Pax,

Chris
 
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Twin Fist

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As my instructor pointed out, there is one time when you might NEED to.

if, as my lineage does, you follow the rule that only a 3rd can promote someone to 1st, then you might NEED to.

But that is pretty rare.

like i said, I dont have aproblem with it, under certain circumstances, but those are rare indeed.

Stuart,
you should never say never, it may come back to bite ya. Fate is funny that way.
 

StuartA

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Stuart,
you should never say never, it may come back to bite ya. Fate is funny that way.

I revised my post remember.. I said, with 1 exception*.. still never! So its not really never say never :)

I never got double promotions/skip grades anyway.. no matter how good they are. how can someone be promoted without knowng the required material... can i become a doctor if I play nurses well and promise to learn it all afterwards.. of course not!

If you want to recognise someones hard work, give them an A grade or something!

Stuart

* By exceptions I do mean those who have been mislead etc. BUT the offshoot of this is that its abused.. people who havnt trained for 10 yeasr suddenly turning up again and are jumping grades and all that! TBH.. I dont give a fig either way, it lacks integrity to me and means little when judged against the 'behind the belt' knowledge.. as ultimatly, thats what counts and thats how I personally see people!
 

Carol

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Terry's USAT thread...someone getting bumped up two dan levels for paying several thousand dollars and working fervently on material for two days...that also sounds like an abuse of a system.

However, someone like IcemanSK...I've never worked out with him but I hear him talk about his training and his teaching and he seems very competent and mature. To hear someone like him being at 2nd dan for 19 years for trusting the wrong person...that to me sounds like an abuse of a system.

There can be an abuse if one skips a dan rank, there can be abuse if one doesn't skip a dan rank.

There are different ways to correct abuses to a system. Skipping a dan rank is not necessarily the only solution nor is it the best solution to a given problem. But, even though the overall idea makes me a bit queasy, I think there are some legitimate, logical, and rare occasions when it is a good choice to make. :asian:
 

SFC JeffJ

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I was skipped a lot. But then again I was 10th kyu for about six years before my first testing. Then I was 1st kyu. Another seven years went by and I was testing for my first Dan and was awarded 2nd Dan because of knowledge and application of the material.

I do still feel kinda funny about that Dan testing, but then again the people who got their 1st Dan at the same time (not trying to sound arrogant here) were way behind me in technique and understanding.

So, I can see it happening, but not very often.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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I think that Elder summed it up pretty well.

To answer for myself, I think it very much depends upon the circumstances.

If the person has the time in grade, tested, received his 'belt' and a 'cert', but the school pocked the money, never registed him with the Kukkiwon, ITF, or other org, then he finds out his cert and rank(s) are bogus, then provided he knows the material for the rank he seeks, has a level of skill appropriate of the rank that he seeks, and has the maturity for such rank, then I'd say that its a no brainer.

If the person has had the time in grade but missed the test...
1. Why did they miss the test or tests?
2. Have they been training continually?
3. Does their current level of ability, maturity, and conduct warrant such a skip.

If they do not have the time in grade...
1. Why are they seeking the skip?
2. Have responsibilities been placed upon them that require the increased rank, such as grading students?
3. Does their current level of ability, maturity, and conduct warrant such a skip.

If someone else is recommending the person for the skip, i.e. they are not seeking it themselves....
1. Did the person do some extraordinary service for the organization?
2. Have responsibilities been placed upon them that require the increased rank, such as grading students?
3. Does their current level of ability, maturity, and conduct warrant such a skip.

Regarding a comment made on the last page regarding testing for fifth dan and up and that only school owners really need to, I'd like to reword the statement: any ranks for which there is no material to test for are only needed for school owners or organizational administrators.

If there is material to test for, you have the time in grade, and there is new material to learn in the new rank, then I do feel that it is beneficial to anyone, though I do agree that unless you're a school owner, it is usually not necesarilly.

Daniel
 

Daniel Sullivan

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Sorry.

I've seen a young boy skip a color belt.

That's the way it it was.

Our school does not skip colored belts, but I have seen it done at other places.

Personally, I don't see any belt skip, colored or not, as cheapening the practitioner provided they know the material required for a practitioner of that rank and that they can execute the material at a level appropriate to the rank.

I'm more concerned about skipping material.

So, you being ATA, lets say someone is skipped to camo from two belts below (skiping over one belt to camo). If this person knows the material and can execute the material at a camo belt level for all of the preceeding ranks, not just the material required for the camo belt test, then I don't see skipping them as cheapening anything, though I do feel that they should be tested for the material required for the rank that they're skipping.

From what I understand, the ATA does a block teaching format, so if I understand it correctly, a student really can learn the forms and material that is ahead of him or her.

If the student has the time in grade and simply missed the one test but knows the material up to and including the material needed to test for camo, then it isn't cheapening anything.

Incidentally, change the belt color and my comment applies to any organization. I only referenced the ATA because you're a member.

Go ahead, skip that Dan ranking. It won't cheapen anything.
I disagree here. Inflated dan rank is one of the biggest problems in taekwondo, regardless of organization. Skipping a dan should be only for very, very specific circumstances and should never be one lightly.

While a skip in dan rank won't automatically cheapen anything, it has the potential to cheapen everything. It also has the potential to be another stepping stone for an underskilled and immature instructor who not only never becomes properly trained or mature, but then attains the rank to promote people without having the ability to properly evaluate those he promotes. This is likewise, a huge problem in taekwondo today, regardless of organization.

Daniel
 

exile

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Exile,
I was personaly brought into the discussion, me, my life, my circumstances. So I answered from that perspective.

Understood, TF. The danger is that you get 'reverb'. One thing that I've found very useful is the sweet one-liner: 'Suppose we just leave personalities out of this, OK?'

Amazing how fast that makes the point. Sometimes people go over that boundary line without thinking, and all that's needed is a kind of sharp pull on their chain to get them back in 'civil' territory.
 

jim777

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Well, I can't imagine anyone every considering skipping me a grade ;) but I would have to think if a Master I was studying under thought someone in my school deserved to be skipped a belt, I wouldn't second guess that decision. In Seido I train under the 9th Dan founder directly, and I would never dream of questioning any decision or action of his. So, I suppose while I wouldn't expect to see it myself, I would have to view 'the skip' in context of who exactly was shipping the student, not the context of the particular student. Hope that makes sense.

To lowly me, the ways of high dans are mysterious and subtle, and generally not to be questioned by the rank and file. Why ask the question when you know you haven't the insight to understand the answer? :asian:
 

Sukerkin

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That's good advice, Exile :tup:.

When we communicate on the web we must perforce adjust to an extent the way we convey our opinons because the only thing people have to go on are 'bald' words on the screen.

However, it is perfectly possible to disagree without being disagreeable.

TF and me are, I think {hope :eek:}, examples of this. We don't have matched opinions on many aspects of politics, quite opposite in some ways, in fact; yet we manage to have perfectly reasonable explorations of what we think by the simple auspice of still treating each other with respect.

That last is such an important thing to remember when we post. It can even lead to the situation I am in now, after a considerable number of discourses with TF, wherein I find myself wondering what he thinks on a matter. If you don't maintain that sense of respect then you lose the opportunity to learn and understand other viewpoints.

Probably a bit too deep for early eveing on a martial arts forum but it's still a valid point. Anyhow, back to the actual point of the thread, chaps :lol:.
 
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Twin Fist

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wait, i just realized something

All this time, I was not talking about someone ASKING to skip a rank.

THAT would be bogus. pretty much always, not ALWAYS, but pretty much

I was referring to when a persons instructor just does it to them.

I couldnt think of ever asking for that to happen, but what if my instructor just up and does it?

thats what happened to my instructor. She tested for 4th, and they promoted her to 5th.

in that case, I would not disrespect my instructor by turning it down, but I wouldnt feel totally ok with it either.
 

jim777

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wait, i just realized something

All this time, I was not talking about someone ASKING to skip a rank.

THAT would be bogus. pretty much always, not ALWAYS, but pretty much

I was referring to when a persons instructor just does it to them.

I couldnt think of ever asking for that to happen, but what if my instructor just up and does it?

thats what happened to my instructor. She tested for 4th, and they promoted her to 5th.

in that case, I would not disrespect my instructor by turning it down, but I wouldnt feel totally ok with it either.

I don't really see how any good martial artist whose head and heart are in the right place could feel good about that. Well, right off the bat (for the first few moths), anyway ;)
You're absolutely right, you couldn't turn it down, you'd simply have to do whatever your heart told you to to make yourself feel worthy of that promotion. It might be a very good thing in the end.
 

Marginal

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thats what happened to my instructor. She tested for 4th, and they promoted her to 5th.

in that case, I would not disrespect my instructor by turning it down, but I wouldnt feel totally ok with it either.
Makes sense. I'd figure they saw something to merit it, but I'd be working my butt off to get to where I think the bar's now set.
 

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