Kukkiwon Promotion Rules changes

[andyjeffries]

As of early next year, Kukkiwon master instructors won't be able to promote candidates to dan/poom rank without having taken a promotion test examiner course. And even when they do, they won't be able to promote above 2nd Dan without being part of a panel (invitation from the national Kukkiwon branch in their country).

There are three different classes of test examiners (this is as I understand it, it may not be 100% correct):

• 3rd Class Examiner - Can promote up to 3rd Dan (as part of a national panel, if invited) or up to 2nd Dan as part of a dojang-panel, must have a minimum of 4th Dan Kukkiwon
• 2nd Class Examiner- Can promote up to 6th Dan (as part of a national panel, if invited), must have a minimum of 6th Dan Kukkiwon and 3rd or 2nd Class Kukkiwon Master Instructor certificate
• 1st Class Examiner- Can promote up to 7th Dan (as part of a national panel, if invited) and recommend for 8th Dan promotion to Kukkiwon, must have a minimum of 8th Dan Kukkiwon and 1st Class Master Instructor certificate

The reasoning for this is to increase the standard of Kukki-Taekwondo practitioners by ensuring all the test panel members are qualified. However, there are concerns that now people with many decades experience may as well rip up their high dan certificates, as now they are effectively as unqualified as a 1st dan in that they can teach but not promote anyone.

Thoughts on this new policy?

 

[TrueJim]

Based on what I've seen at our local schools, schools that hand out Kukkiwon dan certificates generally already have pretty good standards. When I go to local tournaments, the black belts there almost invariably look good: nice snap, coordination, power, concentration, balance, and technique. So from my point-of-view, this seems like an onerous requirement that likely won't do much to fix any problems; poor schools will still find ways to be poor schools. But maybe there are swaths of schools out there promoting people willy-nilly....I don't know. If so, maybe I'm wrong and this will indeed force a whole lot of schools to improve the way they teach and promote. Somebody somewhere must have felt that there was a problem that needed to be solved? I don't see the problem around here though.

 

[Earl Weiss]

As of early next year, Kukkiwon master instructors won't be able to promote candidates to dan/poom rank without having taken a promotion test examiner course. And even when they do, they won't be able to promote above 2nd Dan without being part of a panel (invitation from the national Kukkiwon branch in their country).

Not a KKW person but the logistics will be important.
1. Who will administer the test examiner courses, where and how often?
2. Cost of Courses.
3. What are the chances of a "Work Around" where 2-3 Buddies all sign off on test as part of a panel whether present or not?

I am sure plenty will be PO'd unless some are grandfathered in.

 

[TrueJim]

The head of our school is Kukkiwon 7th dan and I believe he mentioned in passing that he'd have to go to Korea to take the course. I got the impression that nobody is being grandfathered in, and there'd be no work-arounds since apparently you actually have to take the course at Kukkiwon?

 

[andyjeffries]

Not a KKW person but the logistics will be important.

Your input is always welcome Master Weiss!

1. Who will administer the test examiner courses, where and how often?

The courses are to be taught by Kukkiwon instructors, in each region. Frequency unknown, but there is only one planned for Europe between this morning when it was announced to the masters by email and in March when they start to come live.

2. Cost of Courses.

The cost of the course is relatively cheap - US$200. However, when you add in the cost of airfare and accommodation it can quickly add up.

3. What are the chances of a "Work Around" where 2-3 Buddies all sign off on test as part of a panel whether present or not?

I guess this is possible and plausible. Whether it will happen or not is a different issue.

I am sure plenty will be PO'd unless some are grandfathered in.

As TrueJim said, as far as I understand it, none will be. For example, they recently (a month ago ish) held an "invitational promotion test examiner course" as effectively a test run with invited masters - attending that course were various 9th Dans including GM Park Soo Nam (ex-President of the German Taekwondo association) and GM Shin Tong Wan (World Poomsae Champion from Great Britain). They both had to to go on the floor and test the same as everyone else present.[/QUOTE]

 

[andyjeffries]

The head of our school is Kukkiwon 7th dan and I believe he mentioned in passing that he'd have to go to Korea to take the course. I got the impression that nobody is being grandfathered in, and there'd be no work-arounds since apparently you actually have to take the course at Kukkiwon?

At Kukkiwon or under the watchful eye of Kukkiwon instructors/examiners at various locations around the world

 

[Dirty Dog]

So...
You train for 30 years and attain a high Dan rank, but somehow in all those years you haven't learned the standards?
If that's actually the case, how is a weekend seminar going to change anything?

Maybe I'm cynical (ok, I am, there's no real doubt about it) but this doesn't seem to me like it's going to really do anything useful.

 

[kmorrisonnyc]

As of early next year, Kukkiwon master instructors won't be able to promote candidates to dan/poom rank without having taken a promotion test examiner course. And even when they do, they won't be able to promote above 2nd Dan without being part of a panel (invitation from the national Kukkiwon branch in their country).

Master Jeffries, can you clarify what you mean by "invitation from the national Kukkiwon branch"?

Does that mean, for example, in the UK that only people invited by the BTCB or in the US only people invited by USAT could participate in grading panels? Or am I completely misunderstanding? (Apologies if I've referenced the wrong bodies; I'm not intimately familiar with the exact governing bodies)

 

[kmorrisonnyc]

Master Jeffries, can you clarify what you mean by "invitation from the national Kukkiwon branch"?

Does that mean, for example, in the UK that only people invited by the BTCB or in the US only people invited by USAT could participate in grading panels? Or am I completely misunderstanding? (Apologies if I've referenced the wrong bodies; I'm not intimately familiar with the exact governing bodies)

Actually, I didn't see your attachment where it is defined:

"1) Kukkiwon Branch - The Kukkiwon plan to set up one branch for each nation. The Kukkiwon can directly establish the overseas corporation or approve a MNA or local subsidiary as the Kukkiwon branch."

Much like Dirty Dog I'm a little cynical, but would appear this just increases the likelihood of politics at a local level?

 

[chrispillertkd]

• 2nd Class Examiner- Can promote up to 6th Dan (as part of a national panel, if invited), must have a minimum of 6th Dan Kukkiwon and 3rd or 2nd Class Kukkiwon Master Instructor certificate

Out of curiosity, is this a typo? It looks as if you can theoretically promote someone to the same rank you hold yourself.
Pax,

Chris

 

[Metal]

I actually wanted to start a separate thread for this since this is what Manny's "Father of Mexican TKD..." is about.

Besides Park Soo Nam there were a few other Germans at the Kukkiwon course, including former DTU (German Taekwondo Union) president Heinz Gruber who also took his 8th Dan test at Kukkiwon this year.

My thoughts on this:

I knew this was coming sooner or later and it's also the way it's handled in Korea. Of course the independent Kukkiwon instructors are in rage since Dan gradings became an important income (for some more - for others less) over the years. Yet the way some of those instructors handled Kukkiwon gradings in the past may also be a reason for the new system. Selling Dan certificates, tests that don't cover the basics (be it no sparring, no Poomsae, no breaking - it has all been done) and also simply cashing in on the Kukkiwon tests, by charging ridiculous amounts for the tests, may have all been reasons that basically forced the Kukkiwon to change the system.

 

[Dirty Dog]

My first post was made without reading the PDF. I've now read the PDF.
A large part of the motivation for this is (as is pretty clearly stated in the PDF) to generate cash.
To me, this looks more like a way to generate cash than anything else.
I do not buy the idea that this will somehow change the standards by which people are promoted.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

You know, there are times I am very grateful to be practicing an art where rank promotions are not part of the instructor's revenue stream.

 

[Dirty Dog]

You know, there are times I am very grateful to be practicing an art where rank promotions are not part of the instructor's revenue stream.

Frankly, this doesn't seem to be about the instructors revenue stream. It seems to be about the Kukkiwons revenue stream.

 

[TrueJim]

Reading Dirty Dog's comment, my first thought was...in the end, do you really make more money by setting up national branches of the Kukkiwon? Each of those branches will now want to be fed as well, and each branch is going to want to keep as much money for itself as it can. I'm not saying they'll do that out of greed, but it's the nature of organizations that they always feel they should "do more" and yet never have enough resources.

Or to put it in corporate terms, you don't cut-costs or increase-revenues by setting-up additional levels in the hierarchy!

It seems to me that what you'll have in the future is umpteen national branches pushing-back against the parent organization to promote policies that allow the national branches to keep as much money as they can, and umpteen national branches creating duplicative shadow organizations, pursuing completely different agendas, promoting different taekwondo policies, etc.

So now I'm wondering if this is a money thing at all...maybe it's a scaling thing? The only time you set up additional levels in a hierarchy is when you feel like you can't manage the size of what you already have, but you still have the ambition for a lot of growth. Maybe this is about accelerating the growth of Kukkiwon-style taekwondo, but doing so in an annoyingly cautious way so as to not allow the quality to decrease?

 

[Manny]

Well no problem to me, I don't have kukiwon certification and never will. It's silly how politcs rules the MA.

El Manny

 

[WaterGal]

Mixed feelings about this.

I don't have a problem with requiring a panel of masters to judge a dan test. That's how they do it in Kendo - they have community promotions at like a rec center with a bunch of masters from different schools judging - and it works pretty well for them. That can be a good way to maintain standards and community and all that.

But I am concerned about the logistics of how this is implemented, and most especially about this examiner's course. If every instructor has to fly to another country and stay in a hotel in order to take this class..... most won't, because they can't afford it. Last time I checked, round trip tickets to Seoul alone were over $2,000, nevermind hotel, food, the cost of the class, etc. If they can send someone to every city around the world where TKD is practiced to give the course, or if they can do it as an online course, then fine. Otherwise, I think this is going to lead to a lot of people giving up on Kukkiwon promotions and a massive decline in the number of certs they're giving.

I'm also concerned about the lack of communication from Kukkiwon about this. This post on here was the first I've heard about this. We haven't received anything from Kukkiwon about it, and I can't find any info about it on their website or the USAT site.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Mixed feelings about this.

I don't have a problem with requiring a panel of masters to judge a dan test. That's how they do it in Kendo - they have community promotions at like a rec center with a bunch of masters from different schools judging - and it works pretty well for them. That can be a good way to maintain standards and community and all that.

If you happen to have that large a community within a reasonable distance, sure.
For Dan promotions, we will invite a couple of the Moo Duk Kwan GM down, but they're only about 90 minutes away by car.
If we had to fly them in from another state and have a guarantee of XXX present for the promotion... the cost would certainly go up, for one thing.

But I am concerned about the logistics of how this is implemented, and most especially about this examiner's course. If every instructor has to fly to another country and stay in a hotel in order to take this class..... most won't, because they can't afford it. Last time I checked, round trip tickets to Seoul alone were over $2,000, nevermind hotel, food, the cost of the class, etc. If they can send someone to every city around the world where TKD is practiced to give the course, or if they can do it as an online course, then fine. Otherwise, I think this is going to lead to a lot of people giving up on Kukkiwon promotions and a massive decline in the number of certs they're giving.

This is what I expect. Our KJN is a KKW 8th Dan. We've always offered the KKW certification as an option (though most of our students opt for the MDK certification). I wonder if this might stop being an option.

 

[Archtkd]

As of early next year, Kukkiwon master instructors won't be able to promote candidates to dan/poom rank without having taken a promotion test examiner course. And even when they do, they won't be able to promote above 2nd Dan without being part of a panel (invitation from the national Kukkiwon branch in their country).

Andy: I doubt this will ever fly in the the U.S, which holds the 2nd largest number of Kukki taekwondo practitioners, masters and grandmaster in the world, behind Korea. Kukki style folks here -- as many, many, are already doing -- will stop recommending their dojang members for Kukkiwon certification and the Kukkiwon will suffer serious political, economic and international relations consequences. Kukkiwon taekwondoin here have enjoyed a level of freedom they will never be willing to give up. A group called the USTC six years ago tried to negotiate some exclusive pooom/dan recommendation status with the Kukkiwon and fell flat on its face. Some members of that group in Chicago are now trying to seize on this new Kukkiwon initiative and they too will never be able to hold sway over other Kukkiwon grandmastes and masters in the U.S.

 

[Archtkd]

The reasoning for this is to increase the standard of Kukki-Taekwondo practitioners by ensuring all the test panel members are qualified. However, there are concerns that now people with many decades experience may as well rip up their high dan certificates, as now they are effectively as unqualified as a 1st dan in that they can teach but not promote anyone.
Thoughts on this new policy?

Andy: The bigger questions here is the issue of standards. Most of us already know that the place with one of the biggest problems of standards today is Korea. If the Kukkiwon cannot implement good taekwondo standards in Korea, how can it do the same to the larger world? While trying to avoid making a general, sweeping statement I tend to think geup and dan rank testing; and indeed Kukki taekwondo standards, at a large number of dojang in the U.S, Canada and probably Mexico are far much better than those of many dojangs in Korea.