Kukkiwon Promotion Rules changes

TrueJim

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I think I'm the one who's missing something. The above PDF is from 2013. Is there some new update on this case that I've missed? I don't see any updates listed on justia.com, for what it's worth.

Based on that PDF, the case looks like it's between the US Taekwondo Committee (which I assume is USAT?) and Kukkiwon?
 

Archtkd

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I think I'm the one who's missing something. The above PDF is from 2013. Is there some new update on this case that I've missed? I don't see any updates listed on justia.com, for what it's worth.

Based on that PDF, the case looks like it's between the US Taekwondo Committee (which I assume is USAT?) and Kukkiwon?

The OP doesn't seem to have an idea of what he is talking or posting about. That case is old. The US Taekwondo Committee (USTC) has nothing whatsoever to do with USA Taekwondo or the test examiner issue. USTC is/was an organization founded by GM Sang Lee, who was unceremoniously kicked out from USTU, the predecessor body of USA Taekwondo. USTC in 2009 was the first organization to convince the Kukkiwon to offer it's international master instructor courses in the U.S. GM Sang Lee cut a deal with then/and short lived Kukkiwon president GM Seung Wan Lee for the USTC to be the Kukkiwon branch in the U.S. The deal fell apart when GM Seung Wan Lee was pushed out of the Kukkiwon. That's the basis of the breach of contract lawsuit, which as the case went could not really be heard in a U.S court. One thing of note Bruce Harris, the secretary general of USA Taekwondo was USTC secretary general in 2009. The USTC deal is in many way similar with the flawed one that GM Ki Hong Kim's World Taekwondo Masters Union (WTMU) has made with the Kukkiwon to offer Kukkiwon test examiner and master certification instructor courses.
 

Archtkd

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Let me see if I've got this right. Kukkiwon America (or US Kukkiwon or whatever they're calling themselves) is suing Kukkiwon because Kukkiwon wants to cancel the agreement with them for them to be the US national branch, on account of Kukkiwon now being basically part of the South Korean government rather than an NGO and can no longer legally engage in the kind of agreement they had made. Do I have that right?

Are you saying that this lawsuit is why Kukkiwon America/WTMU is being so opaque about what's going on with the rule changes?

How is WTMU being "so opaque?" Have you spoken to anybody at the organization or attended any seminar they have hosted? And specifically what rule changes are you referring to?
 
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andyjeffries

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Let me see if I've got this right. Kukkiwon America (or US Kukkiwon or whatever they're calling themselves) is suing Kukkiwon because Kukkiwon wants to cancel the agreement with them for them to be the US national branch, on account of Kukkiwon now being basically part of the South Korean government rather than an NGO and can no longer legally engage in the kind of agreement they had made. Do I have that right?

Are you saying that this lawsuit is why Kukkiwon America/WTMU is being so opaque about what's going on with the rule changes?

I only saw a link relating to September 2013, so I don't think it has much to do with whatever is happening at the moment...
 

DaveHath

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With all that being said. Does anybody have a clear picture as to what is the current status in the USA who holds the current MOU with Kukkiwon?

I know things in Australia just started to settle down.
In theory the promotion procedures that they want to put in place are not bad, If we had more cohesive state level organizations. This would be too easy. I do remember a time in TKD in the US where almost all promotions tests were made up of a panel of 5th dans and above from the other schools in the state. Though in the Northeast this is and was easier than in the west and Midwest due to distance. Every test I participated in and attended from 1984-1996 had a panel of 3-5 TKD masters usually 6th Dan and higher but always 5th dan and higher. While we did have school/kwan specific test requirements, the minimum KKW/USTU requirements were always part of the test. I have always felt that standardization is good. It provides a baseline. Individual schools can always add to but not take away from the min. However, we have not been very good at standardization in the US as far as TKD goes. Also Instructor training is a good thing as is Examiner training. We are not the first to do this. The problem is and this seems to be the case going back to day one, the way the courses are implemented. The whole do it now or else and then the lack of support or training from KKW makes the policy flawed.
 

Rmedina

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As of early next year, Kukkiwon master instructors won't be able to promote candidates to dan/poom rank without having taken a promotion test examiner course. And even when they do, they won't be able to promote above 2nd Dan without being part of a panel (invitation from the national Kukkiwon branch in their country).

There are three different classes of test examiners (this is as I understand it, it may not be 100% correct):
  • 3rd Class Examiner - Can promote up to 3rd Dan (as part of a national panel, if invited) or up to 2nd Dan as part of a dojang-panel, must have a minimum of 4th Dan Kukkiwon
  • 2nd Class Examiner- Can promote up to 6th Dan (as part of a national panel, if invited), must have a minimum of 6th Dan Kukkiwon and 3rd or 2nd Class Kukkiwon Master Instructor certificate
  • 1st Class Examiner- Can promote up to 7th Dan (as part of a national panel, if invited) and recommend for 8th Dan promotion to Kukkiwon, must have a minimum of 8th Dan Kukkiwon and 1st Class Master Instructor certificate
The reasoning for this is to increase the standard of Kukki-Taekwondo practitioners by ensuring all the test panel members are qualified. However, there are concerns that now people with many decades experience may as well rip up their high dan certificates, as now they are effectively as unqualified as a 1st dan in that they can teach but not promote anyone.

Thoughts on this new policy?

Where is the standard for Kukki-Taekwondo?
 

Archtkd

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With all that being said. Does anybody have a clear picture as to what is the current status in the USA who holds the current MOU with Kukkiwon?.

A Memorundum of Understanding (MOU) for what? If you are talking about who can recommend dan/poom certification in the U.S it's any taekwondoin who is a member of the Kukkkiwon Membership System (KMS), which is basically any Kukkiwon 4th dan and up who has applied and been approved for KMS membership. There are also several organization with MOUs to approve poom/dan recomendation including USA Taekwondo, United States National Taekwondo Federation (USNTF), U.S Taekwondo Committee (USTC), AAU Taekwondo, etc. Most Kukkiwon higher dan teachers -- 8th dan and up -- can promote up to 7th dan in the U.S. Nothing has changed about individual teacher's rights to recommend Kukkiwon certification, or the rights of those organizations. There will be no changes in the U.S, precisely because the Kukkiwon, among other things, is not likely to shut down a cash spigot fed by so many teachers and organizations. The idea of mandatory committees will never fly in the U.S. Dojangs and organizations will continues make their own testing rules and organize voluntary testing panels as they have always done.
 
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TrueJim

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As I understand it, Dave is referring to the Kukkiwon's new "federated" approach wherein each country will have an in-country organization that represents the Kukkiwon in that country. The Kukkiwon has an MOU with each in-country organization giving that organization the authority to represent Kukkiwon in that country on designated topics. Here in the US the designated organization is now calling itself "Kukkiwon America" but previously it was known as the World Taekwondo Masters Union (WTMU), founded by Ki Hong Kim and headquartered outside Chicago. As another example, the school previously known as T4U in Australia now calls itself Kukkiwon Australia and of course represents Kukkiwon down-under. See for example, TKD4YOU

If I'm understanding Dave's question correctly, he's asking:
  1. There were objections to WTMU representing Kukkiwon in the US without a more transparent selection process. Has anything changed with regard to that? No, not that I'm aware of. WTMU is still "Kukkiwon America".
  2. Will US instructors (even high-dan instructors) have to take the Examiners Course in order to promote their own students past 2nd dan (if they want their student to receive a Kukkiwon dan certificate)? Yes, as far as I know that new requirement went into effect this month.
Upshot: unless you've taken the Examiners Course organized by the WTMU here in the US, starting this month you will no longer be able to recommend dan certification for 3rd dan or higher.

Arch...I haven't heard or seen any announcements to the contrary? But I also haven't yet heard a case where somebody has recommended somebody for dan promotion and had it rejected by Kukkiwon...that will be interesting to see when/if it first happens!
 

Archtkd

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  1. Will US instructors (even high-dan instructors) have to take the Examiners Course in order to promote their own students past 2nd dan (if they want their student to receive a Kukkiwon dan certificate)? Yes, as far as I know that new requirement went into effect this month.
Upshot: unless you've taken the Examiners Course organized by the WTMU here in the US, starting this month you will no longer be able to recommend dan certification for 3rd dan or higher.

Arch...I haven't heard or seen any announcements to the contrary? But I also haven't yet heard a case where somebody has recommended somebody for dan promotion and had it rejected by Kukkiwon...that will be interesting to see when/if it first happens!

I keep saying this over and over again. There will be no changes in the U.S. There will be no more examiner courses. The examiner course in California in January was probably the last one to be offered in the U.S. That ill-concieved examiner project will not go forward. Thinking of it. Have you ever seen an official Kukkiwon communication to teachers in the U.S states, talking about the changes? Any communication about the issue has always been made by WTMU. There are more than 4,000 teacher in the U.S, who are KMS members who can recommend Kukkiwonw/dan certification, and only a miniscule number of them (about 250) tool the WTMU sponsered examiner courses.
 

WaterGal

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I haven't seen any announcement one way or the other, from either WTMU/Kukkiwon America or from Kukkiwon. But I think that, at least for now, Archtkd is probably right.

WTMU/Kukkiwon America's website says they're in the process of organizing state and regional branches, and are looking for people to run them. I really really doubt that they're going to enforce any requirement to take the examiner's course before they've finished setting up their organization. I'm pretty sure that they'll wait until they have a branch in every state that can put together testing panels to do 3rd dan & up tests.

Once that happens, if it happens? Who knows.
 

TrueJim

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This is just my opinion, but I think perhaps you guys are giving Kukkiwon and WTMU too much credit for being that organized. :) Let me lay out a scenario that seems equally likely to me: starting this month schools in the U.S. will start recommending 3rd dan promotions to Kukkiwon just as they always have, Kukkiwon will check whatever database is being used to track instructors who have taken the Examiner's Course (which for all I know is a yellow steno-pad with hand-written notes :) ). Not seeing the instructor's name on the list, Kukkiwon might summon the wherewithall to check with WTMU to verify that the name is not on the list. Whether they do or don't double-check the list, Kukkiwon will deny the promotion. The instructor will complain that no WTMU offered no Examiner's Courses nearby or recently, and Kukkiwon will point fingers at WTMU, but still deny the promotion. Then Kukkiwon and WTMU will stand around pointing fingers at each other for a few months while the poor instructors tear their hair out in frustration. Kukkiwon will want the money, but they also won't want to back-down on their deadline, and WTMU will get in hot-water with Kukkiwon for threatening the Kukkiwon's revenue stream. THEN either Kukkiwon will officially delay the deadline, or WTMU will get its act in gear, or something.

I'm not saying this is more likely than your scenario, but it seems equally likely to me. For Kukkiwon to just ignore its own deadline may be a bureaucratic impossibility....like admitting that the TPS reports didn't really need a new cover page. :)
 

Archtkd

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This is just my opinion, but I think perhaps you guys are giving Kukkiwon and WTMU too much credit for being that organized. :) Let me lay out a scenario that seems equally likely to me: starting this month schools in the U.S. will start recommending 3rd dan promotions to Kukkiwon just as they always have, Kukkiwon will check whatever database is being used to track instructors who have taken the Examiner's Course (which for all I know is a yellow steno-pad with hand-written notes :) ). Not seeing the instructor's name on the list, Kukkiwon might summon the wherewithall to check with WTMU to verify that the name is not on the list. Whether they do or don't double-check the list, Kukkiwon will deny the promotion. The instructor will complain that no WTMU offered no Examiner's Courses nearby or recently, and Kukkiwon will point fingers at WTMU, but still deny the promotion. Then Kukkiwon and WTMU will stand around pointing fingers at each other for a few months while the poor instructors tear their hair out in frustration. Kukkiwon will want the money, but they also won't want to back-down on their deadline, and WTMU will get in hot-water with Kukkiwon for threatening the Kukkiwon's revenue stream. THEN either Kukkiwon will officially delay the deadline, or WTMU will get its act in gear, or something.

I'm not saying this is more likely than your scenario, but it seems equally likely to me. For Kukkiwon to just ignore its own deadline may be a bureaucratic impossibility....like admitting that the TPS reports didn't really need a new cover page. :)

TrueJim: that scenario you are envisioning will never occur. Why? The are many organizations in the U.S, including USA Taekwondo, -- and individual teachers -- who already process hundreds of Kukkiwon applications every year, much more than WTMU has ever processed. The Kukkiwon listens/and has listened to those organizations and individual teachers, who generate serious money. WTMU leaders might have ambitions and plans, but those are not the Kukkiwon's plans in the U.S.

By the way, have you or your teacher ever seen any official communication, letter, etc., from the Kukkiwon giving WTMU the powers it claims to have. If there was such communication don't you think WTMU would have posted it on their web site ages ago? I am not saying WTMU leaders are liars, but their goals do not jive with the Kukkiwon's current plans.
There are almost 8,100 Kukki taekwondo grandmasters and masters in the U.S, according to current Kukkiwon records. Those are taekwondoin ranked 4th - 9th Dan, the bulk of whom currently have individual rights to recommend Kukkiwon dan/poom certification.There's no way the WTMU would be given powers to control the business of that number of American senior taekwondoin.
 
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TrueJim

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I'm pretty sure the head of my school did receive one like this: The New KUKKIWON Project.pdf - Taekwondo Union ...

He didn't show me the letter, but he did mention that he had called up his colleagues inside Kukkiwon to talk about the letter. From that, I infer that he must have received that letter.

That letter doesn't name WTMU by name, but does say each country will have a "Member National Association" (MNA). Then as you know, people started receiving letters like this one http://www.kidokwan.org/2015/10/2015-kukkiwon-invitational-course-in-usa/ from WTMU, claiming to be the MNA for the U.S.

But your larger point is spot-on...this whole thing is so disorganized! One would think there should have been a LOT more communication about a change like this. That's why I'm pessimistic. :) Things this disorganized can go pretty sour!
 

Archtkd

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But your larger point is spot-on...this whole thing is so disorganized! One would think there should have been a LOT more communication about a change like this. That's why I'm pessimistic. :) Things this disorganized can go pretty sour!
I was at the Chicago seminar, and Truejim, you've read my report. Towards the end of the seminar a participant asked GM Park, Chulwung, deputy chief of the Kukkiwon's International business team, what the certification as an examiner really meant and what changes would occur in coming months. GM Park, a good diplomatic communicator, sidestepped that question almost altogether. My short interpretation of what he answered back was that there would be no changes anytime soon. The Kukkiwon was genuinely interested in raising standards, he suggested, but there was no definite timeline about implimentimg the examiner certification project. Any experienced taekwondoin would have noticed that many teachers at the Chicago seminar required more training on Kukki standards and perhaps would have been better prepared by taking an instructor course. Unlike in Korea, where teacher have to take the instructor course to be allowed to open a dojang, there is no no such requirement in the rest of the world, hence the great disparities in standards. In that context, the Kukkiwon is finding itself in a quandary. What is more important for the development of Kukki taekwondo? Is it creating good dan/poom examiners or good taekwondo teachers? Also, who gains the most from the Kukkiwon examiner courses and proposed project? Individual teachers and their students or the organizations hosting the courses and creating testing panels?
 

TrueJim

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I've heard at least one person suggest that if Kukkiwon wanted to raise standards, a better approach would be to hire a bunch of Korean college interns with dan rank and send them on tours of the U.S. schools to demonstrate. That's probably unaffordable I guess. But I agree; even just attending regional tournaments, you can tell the difference between schools where the students are being taught techniques that closely resemble Kukkiwon guidelines, and schools where the students are being taught really unusual techniques.
 

tubby

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As another example, the school previously known as T4U in Australia now calls itself Kukkiwon Australia and of course represents Kukkiwon down-under. See for example, TKD4YOU
just as TA and STA seem to be progressing through their integration T4U pops up and I'm getting mails saying this group has no authority and have no idea who's running anything right now. It is having an effect as I've been told it's highly unlikely (yet again) there will be any competitors in my division (ok so it's the fat and old division) in the state championships coming up, that's not a healthy state of things
 

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If it will decrease the number of unqualified black belts, it's a good thing for KKW. Let's go back to a time where black belt actually signified something.
 

Dirty Dog

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If it will decrease the number of unqualified black belts, it's a good thing for KKW. Let's go back to a time where black belt actually signified something.

Black belt does mean something. What that is, specifically, varies quite a bit from one school and one system to another. And always has. And always will.
 

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