Skipping rank - that big a deal?

[andyjeffries]

This was posted in another thread, but I'm breaking it out here:

If not, then you skipped rank to your Kong Soo Do 7th Dan.

Yes, and no I've never skipped. How about you?

I know there have been some instances of huge skips and of people being skipped when they didn't have time in rank, but it there really that much stigma attached to a skip in rank that it becomes an important point in a debate - whether the other person has ever skipped a rank?

I have been skipped a rank. I had lots of time in grade and my grandmaster felt I was ready (after a week of assessing not only my personal ability but my teaching ability) so I was honoured to be offered and accepted (and wouldn't have offended my instructor my refusing as it would be taken as an "I know better than you").

I can understand the point that there are lessons to be learned at each rank (as I know that's Puunui's point) but in the scheme of things like promoting 6 year olds to poom rank, etc, where do skip dans appear on people's hatred-o-meter.

 

[terryl965]

I believe no-one deserve to be skipped dan period. I believe the USAT has done areally bad job on this and I believe the KKW gives to much lead way for this to be a good thing.

 

[oftheherd1]

I think it should be a very rare occurence. Especially at the Dan level.

However, if a GM says it is proper, then it must be considered proper. I hope no self respecting GM would do such a thing unless fully convinced that the correct learning for the promotion had been accomplished and demonstrated.

Again, I would hope there had simply been some reason why the intermediate belt could not be tested for, but the training had progressed nonetheless.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

This was posted in another thread, but I'm breaking it out here:

I know there have been some instances of huge skips and of people being skipped when they didn't have time in rank, but it there really that much stigma attached to a skip in rank that it becomes an important point in a debate - whether the other person has ever skipped a rank?

I have been skipped a rank. I had lots of time in grade and my grandmaster felt I was ready (after a week of assessing not only my personal ability but my teaching ability) so I was honoured to be offered and accepted (and wouldn't have offended my instructor my refusing as it would be taken as an "I know better than you").

I can understand the point that there are lessons to be learned at each rank (as I know that's Puunui's point) but in the scheme of things like promoting 6 year olds to poom rank, etc, where do skip dans appear on people's hatred-o-meter.

As with many things, it depend on the circumstances surrounding the skip. Let's take some historical examples. I'll use Uechi Ryu as an example, but other arts were similar. In the 50's, Kanei Uechi decided to adopt the Dan/Kyu system. In a mass promotion ceremony he promoted people anywhere from Shodan to Godan. Is zero to Godan wrong? Well considering these were seniors in the Ryu and had began training under Kanbun decades earlier, it was appropriate and needed to fill in the hierarchy of the Ryu. And since the inheritor of the Ryu said it was appropriate, who is to say otherwise? And many of them never wore a BB anyway as it just wasn't a big deal to them.

The original founders of the various Ryus and Kwans didn't start off as 9th or 10th Dans either. They usually received recognition from peers within or from without the system and then assumed that position for the purposes of promoting those in the Ryu or Kwan. So in essence, they skipped rank as well. But what other option did they have? Either have peers promote you or promote yourself. The hierarchy had to start somewhere.

Andy, you've mentioned that you have skipped Dan rank. If your GM felt you were worthy and ready for the skip, who is to say it was wrong? Seriously. He knows YOU. He know YOUR training. And at some point is is less about physical skill and more about what you offer to the art.

There is no universal rule saying you can't skip rank. There is no universal rule that dictates a certain TIG. If your GM jumped you from first to fifth...who am I to say he was wrong?

Sometimes people get hung up on the petty details.

 

[puunui]

The original founders of the various Ryus and Kwans didn't start off as 9th or 10th Dans either. They usually received recognition from peers within or from without the system and then assumed that position for the purposes of promoting those in the Ryu or Kwan. So in essence, they skipped rank as well.

Depends on what you are talking about when you say "original founders of the ... Kwans". But the Taekwondo pioneers who are generally credited with developing and spreading Taekwondo, gentlemen like GM LEE Kyo Yoon, did not skip rank. In fact, they can show you all their dan certificates, from 1st through 9th Dan.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Depends on what you are talking about when you say "original founders of the ... Kwans". But the Taekwondo pioneers who are generally credited with developing and spreading Taekwondo, gentlemen like GM LEE Kyo Yoon, did not skip rank. In fact, they can show you all their dan certificates, from 1st through 9th Dan.

But most could not. And it doesn't really matter anyway.

 

[puunui]

But most could not.

Who are you referring to when you say "most"?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I have been skipped a rank. I had lots of time in grade and my grandmaster felt I was ready (after a week of assessing not only my personal ability but my teaching ability) so I was honoured to be offered and accepted (and wouldn't have offended my instructor my refusing as it would be taken as an "I know better than you").

I can understand the point that there are lessons to be learned at each rank (as I know that's Puunui's point) but in the scheme of things like promoting 6 year olds to poom rank, etc, where do skip dans appear on people's hatred-o-meter.

What would be those lessons to be learned at each rank? Is it just learning another form? What about arts that don't have an additonal form to learn? And just how much time should be spent at each rank? Is a short amount of time at a rank better than or the same as a skipped rank?

 

[puunui]

What would be those lessons to be learned at each rank? Is it just learning another form? What about arts that don't have an additonal form to learn? And just how much time should be spent at each rank? Is a short amount of time at a rank better than or the same as a skipped rank?

You need to read my explanations of the Kukkiwon Yudanja Poomsae. It lays out the journey of a Taekwondo practitioner from 1st through 7th-9th Dan. No other style lays out the path like the Kukkiwon poomsae. That is what Andy is referring to.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I believe no-one deserve to be skipped dan period. I believe the USAT has done areally bad job on this and I believe the KKW gives to much lead way for this to be a good thing.

Good call Terry. I only learnt recently that in kukkiwon tkd it is 1 year from 1st to 2nd dan, 2 years from 2nd to 3rd etc, and that semed to quick to me. In both the tkd I do and the karate I did when I was younger you wait the same number of years as the dan you are going for (2 years from 1st to 2nd etc). Add some skip dans into the kukkiwon system and suddenly it just seems that people can fly through the ranks far too quickly for my liking. My instructor is a 7th dan and has trained continuosly for 32 years to get that rank and that sounds about right to my way of thinking. Throw the quicker dan gradings and a skip dan in there and he'd be a 9th dan easily by now. Im just not a fan of skip dans, I really dont see the point.

 

[Master Dan]

First I believe that the KKW text book explaining conditions that justify a skip Dan are completely valid and no easy thing to qualify for. This is for people who have time in rank all the experience and ability to test at that level. Other situations that have sought to go around those factors in the past and near past including an atempt to pull students from thier traditional masters has also been negative.

There is no one blanket position to take for all people with out personal knowledge of them and thier situation but the KKW published standards if met are credible.

End of day regardless of rank its what you can do that day but Rank allows you in some doors especially educationally or participation wise that if you are older you may not count on an extra 7 to 13 years to just linger waiting for certification of where you are right now?

 

[StudentCarl]

You need to read my explanations of the Kukkiwon Yudanja Poomsae. It lays out the journey of a Taekwondo practitioner from 1st through 7th-9th Dan. No other style lays out the path like the Kukkiwon poomsae. That is what Andy is referring to.

I also think this gives the answer to the skip-dan question. If your GM believes that you are further along the path and fully qualified, such a promotion might be appropriate (i.e. if the yudanja has mastered the lessons of their rank and the next already) . I concede that it should be rare, but I think it's too broad to say it would never be appropriate. I guess the question is whether you believe that it is abused. I would be interested to know of cases. How common is skipping? How common is abuse of it? Is it so rare that it doesn't matter?

 

[andyjeffries]

How common is skipping? How common is abuse of it? Is it so rare that it doesn't matter?

I don't believe it's that common and I think it's becoming less so.

(speculation/rumour mongering mode on)
I think the problem is that USAT had a major dan skipping weekend and p'd a lot of people off by promoting people that were unworthy or didn't have TIG or skipped more dans than just one.
(speculation/rumour mongering mode off)

 

[TaekwondoDad]

You need to read my explanations of the Kukkiwon Yudanja Poomsae. It lays out the journey of a Taekwondo practitioner from 1st through 7th-9th Dan. No other style lays out the path like the Kukkiwon poomsae. That is what Andy is referring to.

Puunui,

I would like to read your explanation. Could you direct me towards where to find it?

 

[andyjeffries]

Puunui's explanations are spread throughout a few messages in this board. A long while ago he posted them to the Taekwondo-net mailing list and at that time I compiled them in to a single PDF for reference. I'm happy to put it out there as I believe Puunui is OK with me doing this (I'm sure we've discussed it over email previously) but if he considers it a problem this document may unceremoniously disappear:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/478290/Taekwondo Black Belt Poomsae.pdf

 

[puunui]

I would like to read your explanation. Could you direct me towards where to find it?

Check out andy's link. It was a series of posts I wrote which got turned into one of my Kukkiwon high dan thesis papers. The seniors liked it and there was some discussion about publishing it in the WTF and/or Kukkiwon magazines as a multi-part article. People think that the Kukkiwon poomsae were hurriedly smashed together, but as you will see in the explanations, there was a lot of thought that went into it. Hopefully it will give you a whole new perspective on the journey or "the way" as envisioned by the pioneers who created Taekwondo. My teacher, GM Park explained two of the nine to me, and I figured out the rest on my own. The explanations came to me when I was training for the Kukkiwon Instructor Course about ten years ago, grinding out 25,000 poomsae reps per year for two years. Training poomsae six days a week, I was averaging 720 reps per week. I don't think you necessarily need to actually do the poomsae to understand the explanations. Anyway, hope you enjoy my paper.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

What are some valid reasons for skipping rank, ones that are considered acceptable within kukkiwon circles? Just curious.

 

[Tony49]

Puunui's explanations are spread throughout a few messages in this board. A long while ago he posted them to the Taekwondo-net mailing list and at that time I compiled them in to a single PDF for reference. I'm happy to put it out there as I believe Puunui is OK with me doing this (I'm sure we've discussed it over email previously) but if he considers it a problem this document may unceremoniously disappear:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/478290/Taekwondo%20Black%20Belt%20Poomsae.pdf

Is there a special way to get this link to work.

Never Mind it seems to open in Explorer but not Firefox go figure....

 

[Thesemindz]

It would be a big deal for me. It is important to me that I test for every rank I hold, and I would refuse a skip rank, even from a grandmaster. Politely of course, but none the less.

Rank only has any real meaning to the person who grants it and the person who wears it. I can't judge another person's rank, whether they skipped or not. I've know some amazing martial artists who had skipped black belt ranks and it didn't diminish my opinion of them one bit. But for me, it's not ok. I couldn't feel right knowing I wore rank I hadn't tested for, even if my instructors or peers thought I deserved it.

But that's me.


-Rob

 

[puunui]

Is there a special way to get this link to work. Never Mind it seems to open in Explorer but not Firefox go figure....

It opened in firefox for me.