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..and I should add that the youngest I've ever allowed to start training was 13. While that may change down the road, it's kept all of this from being any kind of issue for me.....
Should Students under the Age of 16 be Black Belts?
- Thread starter Black Belt Jedi
- Start date
In Instinctive Response Training the juniors or younger people that I teach are striving simply to get better. They may be promoted once a year or twice. There goal is to improve and truthfully ranks are not very important. My goal for them is that when they reach eighteen they will be able to achieve an adult rank in our system. After that if they have the skill sets and the drive they probably will advance fairly quickly and also have tremendous depth of knowledge at that point as well. The model I use is similar to that used in Brazilian Jiujitsu with a seperate ranking system for kids and teens. So they are achieving and learning appropriately and as they mature they move into the adult system and continue on. This definitely helps with quality control! So far while I teach only a few kids and teens it has worked perfectly! Kids/Teens: white, yellow, oarnge, green with stripes in between. (ie. green belt/blue stripe) Adults: White, blue, red and black! We do not put a major emphasis whether teens or adults on rank. Instead the emphasis is on treating everyone the same. Everyone goes by their first name and simply just improving and getting better!
Our curriculum is also geared towards age appropriate material at every level!
So far this has worked great!
Brian,
A few questions for you.
1) What age do you accept kids?
2) When they're old enough to move into the adult class, how much material do they need to catch up on?
I'm not Brian, and I can't speak for IRT, but in my club, we work in a somewhat similar fashion. Our goal is that, if a student starts as a child, they'll be ready to test for 1st level black belt at 18.
The youngest my club will generally accept is around 10. We've done younger, and just weren't happy with the results, but it is still a bit of a judgement call. As far as "catching up", that happens naturally as they get closer to 18.
MJS the way we do it and our goal is to test them for a Blue Belt at age 18. Of course in our system there is no time standard so if their skill sets warrant further advancement then it will happen at the appropriate time. Also we do not take a lot of kid's or teens on but we can when they arrive. I personally feel the best age is to start around thirteen but have taught a few that were younger. So far it has worked out excellent and the system seems to work very smoothly. Like Jks9199 said people catch up easily!
Thank you both for your replies!
Sounds like this works for you, which is a good thing. Only reason I asked, is that I've seen many cases, mostly at past schools, in which people, both parents and students, ask about the promotions. If I'm reading/understanding both of you here, it seems to me that this isn't an issue at your schools, which, is the way it should be. You test when you're ready. If you're not ready, you dont test. Dont ask. If you start at the same time your best friend starts, and your friend starts advancing quicker, dont you or your parents, ask why, because the answer should be obvious....train harder...you suck! If you start at the same time your best friend starts, and your friend starts advancing quicker, dont you or your parents, ask why, because the answer should be obvious....train harder...you suck!
EXACTLY! You all suck!
We don't put a heavy emphasis on testing or promotions. We generally teach everything to everyone; they each simply learn the lesson at their own level. A new student may train with the class, or may be pulled aside to be taught the basic drills based on what the lesson is and where their skill is. Young kids (below 14 to 16, based on maturity) may be taught separately, and some elements aren't exposed to them. They may learn the motion, but not some applications, for example. Generally, around 14 to 16, they start training with the adult class.
I have taught kid's and teen's for nine to twelve months without testing and never had a problem with it. I think the problem arises when testing is a big deal and it is happening every two or three months. Most kid's I know just want to train and be able to hang with kid's that are better than them. The whole testing like crazy and promoting them like crazy is some thing that has simply become big business. (ie. self created by instructors to generally make more money off testing fees) I do not charge testing fees for anyone! I believe that you earn your right to be promoted and it cannot be bought! :ultracool
Brian,
I really like your philosophy. It would be nice, imo, if more instructors thought the same way.
Ceicei
Thanks Ceicei I appreciate your kind words!
I asked one of my younger students once why he didn't bring some of his friends to class. He said that most of the kids he thought might be interested were already black belts via day-care TKD. (OK, my wording, but the sentiment is accurate.) I asked him how he felt about that, and he told me that he was much more confident of his skills with regard to them, and that he was glad his black belt would be real. (Again, my words, but accurate sentiment.)
Kids don't buy into the "we don't keep score" crap in soccer. And they know the difference between "bought the belt" and "earned the belt."
Blade96
Senior Master
Our age limit is 16. and at our last BB grading a few weeks ago a 16year old earned his BB.
Noah_Legel
Blue Belt
Well, I am not a black belt yet, myself, but I think that the age thing is a little arbitrary--kids don't automatically become responsible enough for black belt at 16 and kids aren't automatically not responsible enough at 12 or 13. We have a 13 year old at my dojo who has been training for about 6 years who is very good (and a martial arts sponge) and he was offered the chance to test for black belt early (16 is our standard as well, though) and he turned it down because he doesn't feel ready--that in itself seems like the maturity of a black belt, because everyone else certainly thinks he is ready. I have also trained with people around my age (18-23) and older who are probably not ready for black belt because they don't have the maturity and knowledge necessary. Sure, these may be exceptions to the rule but I think it illustrates the fact that, much as we would like to, you cannot set hard rules on people's individual development in any fine art, including martial arts. Just something to think about, I guess.
Mark Jordan
Blue Belt
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I Agree.
Nowadays, people are obsessing about time spans and in the process diluting the value of the black belt. More than the color of your belt, you have to be a role model. Having a black belt signifies the achievement of maturity, a certain level of skills.
OP
Black Belt Jedi
Blue Belt
- Thread Starter
- #34
In my opinion, students under the age of 16 shouldn't be black belts no matter what Martial Art system they train in. The reason is that a majority of young students don't have the right attitude to be black belts at a young age. Recently I remember one student I train with who is 15 doesn't have the right attitude to be a black belt. In my school, we have a policy that you have to be at least 16 to grade for shodan. We don't even have junior black belts. As an alternative, we grade students under 16 as Brown advance belt (which is equivalent to Jr. black belt/Shodan-ho). Many young students don't understand that in Karate, it is not about the belt, it's about building character through the mind, body, and spirit.
For schools that make young students black belts at young ages, is most likely running a McDojo.
For schools that make young students black belts at young ages, is most likely running a McDojo.
I think it depends on the art, and what black belt is supposed to mean in that art.
I'm not a fan of all the philosophical stuff - I, personally, don't see martial arts as improving your discipline, making you a better person, or anything like that. I see it as proving that you're capable of performing a set of physical tasks in a fast, powerful, and co-ordinated manner. Perhaps you do learn to be cooler under pressure as a side effect, but in my world view (which I accept is different to many other people's / many other arts), it's just a side effect.
So, to me, if the Black Belt requirement is to break three boards, do 100 push ups, run a mile in X time, spar a Black Belt and not make a fool of yourself, and perform 3 randomly selected Kata correctly, then sure - you should get a black belt if you can do all that.
What I hate is when the kids only have to do 50 push ups, run an easier time, and get let off loads in the sparring because they're shorter and therefore can't stand up to the adult they ended up with as a partner. Either you can meet the requirements, or you can't - if you can't, no belt for you, IMO.
That's just my opinion. If the art is a one that views maturity, discipline, or the ability to teach as important, then I think it's even tougher. I can think of many kids that are far more humble and mature than some adult black belts I've met (fortunately those BBs aren't from the place I usually train), but they aren't good teachers because they're too shy. So, who doesn't deserve the black belt there - the adults, or the kids?
Just some thoughts.
I'm not a fan of all the philosophical stuff - I, personally, don't see martial arts as improving your discipline, making you a better person, or anything like that. I see it as proving that you're capable of performing a set of physical tasks in a fast, powerful, and co-ordinated manner. Perhaps you do learn to be cooler under pressure as a side effect, but in my world view (which I accept is different to many other people's / many other arts), it's just a side effect.
So, to me, if the Black Belt requirement is to break three boards, do 100 push ups, run a mile in X time, spar a Black Belt and not make a fool of yourself, and perform 3 randomly selected Kata correctly, then sure - you should get a black belt if you can do all that.
What I hate is when the kids only have to do 50 push ups, run an easier time, and get let off loads in the sparring because they're shorter and therefore can't stand up to the adult they ended up with as a partner. Either you can meet the requirements, or you can't - if you can't, no belt for you, IMO.
That's just my opinion. If the art is a one that views maturity, discipline, or the ability to teach as important, then I think it's even tougher. I can think of many kids that are far more humble and mature than some adult black belts I've met (fortunately those BBs aren't from the place I usually train), but they aren't good teachers because they're too shy. So, who doesn't deserve the black belt there - the adults, or the kids?
Just some thoughts.
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I think 16 would be an excellent age to consider as a minimum for BB. At this age he/she can drive, hold a job or be adjudicated as an adult by a court. I would not consider any younger than that as a legitimate BB unless there were special circumstances. And by special circumstances I mean 'few and far between'. And then, only by a year or so. Certainly not the 8 year old (or 7 or 6 or 5 year olds).
That's just the way I roll
Em MacIntosh
3rd Black Belt
It's a case by case basis. Choosing an arbitrary age makes no difference.
As far as I know, no martial art has been developed exclusively for children. You're learning adult martial arts for adult bodies and the techniques, philosophies etc. are geared toward that understanding, even if you are getting a head start. You may not be full grown but if you're able to take and receive as if you were and your attitude is tempered and respectful, you're ready as long as you meet the requirements. This will include some 12yo who are tough as nails. This might exclude the dedicated practitioner who just doesn't have the coordination. Proper attitude goes without saying and can be learned. Proper body requires physical maturity to some degree.
As far as I know, no martial art has been developed exclusively for children. You're learning adult martial arts for adult bodies and the techniques, philosophies etc. are geared toward that understanding, even if you are getting a head start. You may not be full grown but if you're able to take and receive as if you were and your attitude is tempered and respectful, you're ready as long as you meet the requirements. This will include some 12yo who are tough as nails. This might exclude the dedicated practitioner who just doesn't have the coordination. Proper attitude goes without saying and can be learned. Proper body requires physical maturity to some degree.
Victor Smith
Blue Belt
As I see it sho-dan really doesn't mean anything more than your a student of the art, actually a child in the arts potential.
That doesn't mean it's easy to reach sho-dan, but when you look at an art as a 30 or 40 years study, if reaching sho-dan keeps the individual on that path, the goal is where they are 30 or 40 years later.
Youth or adult so few stay on the path, worrying about how you create beginners is a foolish waste of time.
Rather focus on how to train them after sho-dan when the other study begins.
Draw lines and you eliminate the young, the older, the weaker, the wrong sex, the wrong race, the wrong political, etc.
The real issue is does your art have 40+ years of material to work on and if so does the program develop a sho-dan to move towards that goal. If so age is irrelevant. If not what does that say for the art regardless of the age of the sho-dan?
That doesn't mean it's easy to reach sho-dan, but when you look at an art as a 30 or 40 years study, if reaching sho-dan keeps the individual on that path, the goal is where they are 30 or 40 years later.
Youth or adult so few stay on the path, worrying about how you create beginners is a foolish waste of time.
Rather focus on how to train them after sho-dan when the other study begins.
Draw lines and you eliminate the young, the older, the weaker, the wrong sex, the wrong race, the wrong political, etc.
The real issue is does your art have 40+ years of material to work on and if so does the program develop a sho-dan to move towards that goal. If so age is irrelevant. If not what does that say for the art regardless of the age of the sho-dan?
OP
Black Belt Jedi
Blue Belt
- Thread Starter
- #39
If a kid earns black belt, it is most likely receiving the belt on a silver platter. To earn black belt you have to do at 4 months of training of cardio, practicing kata, basics, bunkai and sparring. Including doing a 10K run, write an essay and do a written exam. And then go through a 4 hour testing. Those are the things I have gone through almost 2 years ago, and they are memorable. If you have students under 16 receiving black belts, then they are most likely getting an easy pass, even if the requirements to get to that level are modified.
In reality, it most likely depends on an individual's attitude. Adult black belts can have an ego too. I remember a friend of mine who doesn't train at my school anymore, was attempting to go for black belt last year, he was 21 at the time. Within two months into his black belt training, he called it quits because the training was too hard for him and felt that he needed an easy ride to get his black belt. Therefore, he didn't have the heart or the maturity to go for black belt.
In reality, it most likely depends on an individual's attitude. Adult black belts can have an ego too. I remember a friend of mine who doesn't train at my school anymore, was attempting to go for black belt last year, he was 21 at the time. Within two months into his black belt training, he called it quits because the training was too hard for him and felt that he needed an easy ride to get his black belt. Therefore, he didn't have the heart or the maturity to go for black belt.
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Good point in this; it isn't just the maturity, skill or desire...it's how much heart a person has to put into the goal. One of my sayings is, "We never quit and we always win!" It is just as much mental mind set as it is physical skill. And as you get older, it is even more so.
