Young Black Belts

chinto01

chinto01

Black Belt
Hello all. I know there have been threads before on this subject but I want to get your opinions on wether or not there is an appropriate age that a student should be promoted to black belt? Should anyone under the age of 18 be required to be a junior black belt and learn a modified cirriculum in the system they are in? The reason I ask is because we are seeing more and more young black belts who may not be mature enough to carry the responsibility associated with the rank they now wear. Let me back this up by an example. A teenager that I know was recently promoted to black belt. We were at a gathering over the holidays and what I witnessed disgusted me. At this gathering someone was sitting in a chair that he wanted to sit in. After a verbal exchange the person in the chair refused to move which he should have done. In anger the he grabbed the person in the chair by the neck and removed him. I was shocked at what I saw. It made me wonder if giving this individual a black belt has "just given the gun to the baby" for lack of a better phrase. There are other instances of where this same person has displayed actions that an older black belt may not display. Any thoughts? What should be done to someone like this ? Are there other instances like this or am I being a little to picky in my expectations of a black belt?

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob
 
This is always a difficult question. Do I believe that teens cannot be black belts? No - they can, and they can be good ones. Do I believe that there is more to rank thank physical ability? Good lord, yes! IMHO, teaching anyone anything that could potentially injure another person - martial arts, how to drive a car, to be a doctor, whatever - includes the responsibility to teach the student how to use those skills appropriately.

I realize that there are plenty of people who disagree with me, who say that a martial arts instructor has no more responsibility to teach ethical/moral usage than an aerobics instructor - and if that works for you, great! For me, however, I feel that I have the responsibility to teach my students how and when to apply their skills as much as the skills themselves - and if I feel that a student will not use those skills appropriately, and is not learning the how and when, I will change how I teach - but there comes a point where I will not continue to teach a student if the student is not understanding the ethical/moral precepts anymore than I would expect a medical school to continue to teach a student who enjoys inflicting pain for its own sake.
 
My teacher will not promote anyone under 18 to black belt. I follow the same rule since I think it's a good one. We teach a comprehensive curriculum that includes weapons work, lots of throws and takedowns, and a high level of physical contact. We do not modify it for children.
 
I would not promote anyone under 18 to black belt. Of course, I have no interest in teaching children. The first time a black belt in our style opened a kids class, a Junior curriculum was put together for their class in which a junior black belt translated to just below brown belt in the adult curriculum...

I also believe that it is my responsibility as an instructor to try and teach not only techniques, but the code of ethics expounded by our arts philosophy. Many instructors don't feel it is their business, and I don't pretend to be a perfect person (I have had students whose personal life was so much more together than mine that at times teaching philosophy to them felt hypocritical), but the art I teach is a philosophy based art whose mission statement is "To become a better person through dedication to the martial arts" - My instructor always taught that the goal was to incorporate the lessons of our martial art into your everyday life.

If I had a student that I felt could not behave responsibly with the skills I was passing on, or if evidence of such was brought to my attention, I would put a hold on their promotions, suspend them, or expel them from the class altogether, depending on the situation, and notify other instructors in the organization of the situation.

Personally, I have rarely accepted students under 18, and then keep them more on the basics. I could envision a very responsible 16 year old learning much of the material, but have a hard time picturing ever promoting someone under 20 or 21 to black belt - and probably older, just due to the time it takes to learn the material...
 
Maturity and rank aren't the same thing.

I don't believe in junior black belts. And I think that expecting someone to be 18 to achieve a black belt is very reasonable; I've got a student that could, by skill, make black belt, and could have a couple of years ago. Our association says you must be 18; waiting has done him well. His skill is better, his understanding is deeper, and he's more prepared.

A lot depends on how you define a black belt; in some styles, it means mastery of the fundamentals. In other styles, it means you're ready to teach. Some combine these meanings. And in some, it's given as something to grow into, when a student has sufficient grasp of the fundamentals to begin serious study.
 
This all depends on what someone considers black belt material to be. For example,

1) In some organizations, attaining black belt means that you're also an instructor.

2) In others, you need to win a certain number of competitions to attain black belt.

3) For others, you get your black belt when you've demonstrated that you have a decent proficiency with the fundamentals, and that you're ready to take on more advanced training.

In the first situation, I would say that you have to have a certain amount of physical maturity and mental maturity. If being a black belt automatically conveys instructor status, then it's generally better than someone be at least 16 years old.

In the second situation, if it's a matter of who the strongest competitor is, then that's their choice.

In the third situation, where all the black belt means is being proficient at the fundamentals, then I see no reason why someone should be held back just because of his age. If a 10 year old can demonstrate strong fundamentals that are as precise as any, then why not grant him the rank if that's what your system entails? If there's nothing more for him to learn at that point, then why waste time in holding him back?

There really is no one right answer. However, there are plenty of wrong answers, such as having 7 year old black belt instructors on the floor. They simply do not have the mental maturity to handle such interactions.
 
I solved this by not giving belts of any color to anyone over 13 :)

But I really don't think it matters, unless there is some other meaning attached to the belt, then it is just a belt. A 12 year old shouldn't be running classes, so if black belt means instructor, then a 12 year old shouldn't get a black belt. Of course there are also lots of adults, that no matter how technically skilled they are should never teach, so should they not get belts?

Another thing to consider would be if a child can't get one because of size and ability to fight, does that take out smaller adults? Older adults?

Belts get used as a all-in-one ranking system, which is a dissaster waiting to happen. Knowledge, skill, physical ability, teaching ability, etc. All things that go under one heading, but not everyone will ever get all of them, no matter how old they are. Yet in most systems any adult that sticks around long enough will eventually get one.

So as far as I am concerned they are a motivation and retention tool to use in the kids class. Beyond that they don't mean much at all, once they move to the adult class they leave the belt behind anyways.
 
Hello, First there are NO rules or regulation accept for you own school policys.

Today black belts...has loss it major meanings because anyone can get a black belt.....and at most ages even under 8 years old have being giving black belts in some systems.

maturity and age?.....to earn a black belt? ....some people NEVER grow up..and others are very mature under 16 years old.

It is up to you to set your own school standards. ONLY you can decide what is the best for your own students!

Make it too easy? ...you will lose in the long run...., once an awhile you will run into an exceptional student that is under 18 years old that deserves a black belt.

Today most of us train for only 2-3 days a week and up to two hours per day. Remember in the old days...you train everyday and for very long hours, doing the same thing everyday. So promtion should take longer (many years)

Judo has a good way that works for them.....you will need to win at least three tournament matches in you own rank, or beat your own ranking students many times before promoted to the next rank. (just some schools).

Many schools today? ...all you need is to meet the minumin requirements.

Be firm and strict....in the long run your students will proud of their Black Belts. (look back on your own promotions and how you felt?)

Black belts today is like a high school degree...just get by and you will earn a degree.

Lets change that format...where a Black belt is a Black belt. Graces Jujitsu takes 10 years, NO short cuts either. ED parker use to take 8 years or more, a friend train with them for 8 years and went to college and was only a brown belt. ( while in college...he was able to take three biker guy's who came on campus to cause trouble and succeeded. )

What is the purpose of earning a Black belt? This is my opinion here ONLY!

The purpose of being or earning a black belt means you can protect/ defend yourself and others and be able to use the martial arts in a very effective way. (meaning you can fight!) ..and fight back! not neccessary winning all the time either...

and you should be able to win most of your sparring matches against your own brown belts too! and do well against your own senior black belts too!

Aloha ( Wal-mart sells Black, brown, and white belts too) ...going green the next time..)
 
Hello, Just a note. At the time you earn your rank....is when you succeed in meeting your Sensi requirements.

Many Black belts grow older, slower, and many train less....and may not train how they were in their younger years.

The Black belt was earn at the time and should be allow to continune there life.

For those who stop training or train less....knows knowledge and some skills will be lost.

Aloha
 
We don`t preach for the students, but a black belt should be able to focus, have a high degree of control and posess both fighting spirit and ability. 16 is a good minimum age for 1. Dan.

If junior black belts are used I think the requirements should be different and the belt be physically different (white with black stripe)

12 or 13 is a good age to start learning the adult curriculum.
 
I have no teaching experience and Ive only been in the MA's for about a year an half now but my opinion is that no one under the age of 18 should be allowed to wear a black belt. You could argue the maturity route on this all day long and I agree with. Some one under 18 doesnt have real world experience that people 18 and older have. I can hear some people say "well whats the difference between 17 and 18 its only 1 year." 17 and 18 are huge differences. 1st theres that whole being viewed as an adult in the eyes of the law thing...yea thats a big one. Also 170 and 18 are the ages most people are in there junior and/or senior year in high school, and a lot can happen in thoses years. Preparing for graduation and seeking out college to attend can really amp up the maturity level in someone.

A diffenent view is the physical aspect. Giving a 16 or you a black belt gives them a false sense of security in my opinion. it could also give them a superman complex. and mixed with a low level of maturity can spell trouble

B
 
I have always viewed belts as totally arbitrary. They needlessly complicate the whole training process and create a tiered environment.

Since a black belt only means what you (the club) want it to mean, then it is up to each individual organisation to define their black belts, and decide if a child can be included in that definition.

It's not a case of 'all black belts should be this' or 'all black belts should be that'. Its simply a matter of what you expect from a black belt, and if you can reasonably expect a child to perform to that level.
 
chinto01 said:
Hello all. I know there have been threads before on this subject but I want to get your opinions on wether or not there is an appropriate age that a student should be promoted to black belt? Should anyone under the age of 18 be required to be a junior black belt and learn a modified cirriculum in the system they are in? The reason I ask is because we are seeing more and more young black belts who may not be mature enough to carry the responsibility associated with the rank they now wear. Let me back this up by an example. A teenager that I know was recently promoted to black belt. We were at a gathering over the holidays and what I witnessed disgusted me. At this gathering someone was sitting in a chair that he wanted to sit in. After a verbal exchange the person in the chair refused to move which he should have done. In anger the he grabbed the person in the chair by the neck and removed him. I was shocked at what I saw. It made me wonder if giving this individual a black belt has "just given the gun to the baby" for lack of a better phrase. There are other instances of where this same person has displayed actions that an older black belt may not display. Any thoughts? What should be done to someone like this ? Are there other instances like this or am I being a little to picky in my expectations of a black belt?

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob
Click to expand...

I'll address this post in 2 parts. As far as the rank issue goes...IMO, I just can't justify a 9yo walking around with a BB. Why do we see that? Because people start kids at 4yrs old, so after 5yrs, the parents are expecting their child to be a BB. Sorry, but I seriously doubt that the 9yo is executing things perfectly. Even if they were, lets do the math. If we follow the typical rank progression, technically, by the time that child is in their teens, they can have a high BB rank. When I say typical, I'm referring to 2 yrs between 1st and 2nd, 2-3 for 3rd, etc. Honestly, what would anyone think if they walked into a school and saw a 18yo 6th degree BB? I know I'd turn around and walk back out the door.

I think that a Jr. BB is a good thing. Unfortunately in todays world, its not about the time and hard work, but instead keeping up with Johnnys friend who started at the same time. Heaven forbid his friend passes him up. Its not about how well someone can defend themselves, but what color belt and how many stripes. Therefore, a Jr BB is good because it still allows the child to continue learning the material for a full BB, while at the same time, not giving them the actual rank.

Now, as far as the kid who threw the other out of the chair. Now, there have been many times at a function, where I've gotten up, only to have my chair taken by another guest. I usually end up just standing and don't say anything. So my chair was taken...big deal. Personally that kid sounds like a punk and should watch himself, because one day, he may try that on the wrong person and be in for a surprise. IMO, he has some anger management issues.
 
I personally would not teach anyone under the age of 10 years old. I know some people would never teach their art to anyone under 18 or 20, but I just think traditional martial arts have too many benefits to relegate them to those over a certain age. I don't know where I'd be if it weren't for Tae kwon Do in my teen years, and my Instructor certainly never went easy on me.
However, I don't think a 14 year old black belt is the same as a 21 year old black belt. I know for a fact our Instructor didn't teach us things he taught the older Dans. I accepted that as just part of the privilege of age.
As for the black belt student, the fault lies with the Instructor who apparently never taught him proper respect and manners. Only part of training is physical. It is the Instructor's job to also instill in these students the obligations that go along with black belt, and they are many.
 
Well I look at it like this we allow junior BB because the Kukkiwon allows them. My sons are Junior BB and handle themself very well do they know everything NO, but look at it like this do we, No. Being a marttial artist is a lifetime journey and the belt you wear does not mean anything if you do not respect it and those that have giving it to you. Well I'm not for it or against it but I rather just say each there own.
 
I don't have a problem with Junior Black Belts as long they are recognized as such and it is established they will not be doing the same things as the adult black belts.
I also don't think junior dans (poom dans) should teach adults. Would you want to pay a monthly fee and be taught by a 13 year old?
 
Umm... What exactly is this "adult only" training some of you are doing?
Click to expand...

Well, we practice many wrist and arms locks. Although we are careful to be sensitive to our partner's level of pain, we recognize that a child on average cannot have the same level of awareness and so he can be dangerous to others AND himself if he doesn't know when to tap or when to back up a bit. Also children's joints are obviously still developing. We would rather not risk hurting them in a way that could affect the growth of their limbs for years to come.

Also consider some of the deadlier moves common in traditional karate, like strikes to the temples or the throat. Do you really want to train that material with a child who may not have the judgement to use the knowledge in an appropriate context? There is a difference between life and death self-defense and just warding off the schoolyard bully...
 
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