Should Students under the Age of 16 be Black Belts?

[jonbey]

I think that if a martial art has a grading system it has to split it out by age. Maybe the younger age groups should never be able to attain black, or may just call it "child black" or "junior black".

Judo system is a bit like that isn't it? Once you get to 14 (I think, I recall chatting to a judo chap in a pub years ago!) you join the adult ranks and then start over, or go back a few colours.

 

[ShotoJon]

i dont think its really about the age, or really about the belt either. i have 2 friends in a different class. they joined at the same time. the first is very high rank in the class and knows a majority of what hes learned by heart. the second, has only moved up one rank in the class. they both perform on an equal level because the second refuses to test. his philosophy on the subject is that he doesnt care about the color cloth around his waist, he just wants to know how to protect himself and whats important to him.

so in retrospect, does it really matter as long as they know the material?

IMO however, giving out junior BBs only serves to pump up their ego which could cause them problems later on. also, why test for a black belt only to have to retake the test later? patience is a virtue

 

[dhumac]

Really - what does age have to do with it? I am relatively new at Karate, but vividly remember my first class - I'm middle age (43) & out of shape, have never participated in any martial training before and after the 30 minute warm up of push-ups/crunches/etc etc I was feeling pretty badly beaten down. I was being taught up to the first kiai of Taikyoku Shodan and having some problems both from it being something I'd never even tried before but also being a little discouraged after the workout. The white belts were being led by a Kosan - but they already knew all 20 moves - and I was feeling a little lost and unable to keep up - one of the young brown belt students stepped away from this own Kata training to assist me and worked a little, giving encouragement and helping me to understand the Kata, the moves and what they are used for.

This same student has in the past 2 months earned his black belt and is now assisting during training; he is only 13 going on 14 and has been in Karate for the past 6 - 7 years! This young man shows responsibility, has amazing patience and maturity far beyond his years, he has strong enthusiasm for the art and whenever anyone requires assistance he is the first to be there to help out. If I have questions or issues with a form that I am working on I have no hesitation asking this young man of about 30 years my junior for help, and I show him all the respect that I would show my Sensei. He has earned that respect based in his knowledge and experience and his age has nothing to do with it - actually, truth be told, I will allow him more respect because of the hard work and dedication that he has shown to earn his place in the dojo given his age!

-Dhumac!

 

[Black Belt Jedi]

IMO however, giving out junior BBs only serves to pump up their ego which could cause them problems later on. also, why test for a black belt only to have to retake the test later? patience is a virtue

That's a good point I agree with you. In my school, my Sensei doesn't grade students under 16 as Jr. Black Belt/Shodan-ho because of it, but Brown belt Advance (brown belt with a black stripe) as the alternative rank.

 

[Steve]

Depends. If your definition of "black belt" is closer to the common, lay definition of the term, I'd say no. Most people outside of martial arts consider a black belt to be the rank awarded to an expert in that martial art. This is a definition that has been cultivated and promoted over the years by the martial arts community.

Within many styles, the black belt doesn't mean much at all. So, within many styles, it doesn't really matter. It all depends upon how your particular style awards rank. In BJJ, a 16 year old shouldn't have anything higher than... maybe... a blue belt.

 

[lma]

I got my first Dan at 15. I was a mature student though and only ever got to take a warm up once in a n emergency (karate politics usual) at 16. Never really started takin classes till I was 20 and it wasnt a full class. Even now it rare I'll take a full class. It will probable be like this for a long time till my sensei pops his clogs lol

 

[Black Belt Jedi]

I got my first Dan at 15.

So few students at your age can have that mental attitude to obtain a black belt. I heard that some schools make students be black belts at the minimum age of 14 or 15.

 

[Grenadier]

In my dojo, black belts are black belts, regardless of age. Thus, you have under-16 black belts, and adult black belts. They should all have the same categories of knowledge, assuming similar rankings.

However, being a yudansha only means that you've earned the rank of shodan or higher, plain and simple. Rank is no direct indication of one's teaching capacities or duties, or even if such yudansha are even allowed to teach.

For us, those who wish to teach must go through instructor's academy, where you must be at least 13 and at least shodan to be a junior-level sempai. As a junior level sempai, you aren't there to teach a class, and are there to instruct others by being a good example to follow.

At times, though, they may be given responsibilities to help a specific individual, one on one, and that they focus on a narrow range of things. For example, they may show a specific short section of a kata, one step at a time, but generally don't do any "coaching" in those situations, unless given permission by the instructor in charge of the class.

You must be 16 to be eligible for a senior sempai's ranking, where you're still primarily there to serve as a good example, but are also allowed to teach classes on your own, although sometimes it will be supervised by one of the senior sensei's of the dojo.

You must be at least a high school graduate, and at least a nidan, to become a sensei, where you're allowed to teach classes on your own, where most of it will be unsupervised.

In the end, though, there is essentially only one sensei on the floor, even if others with the title of sensei are training in the class as well, just as there is only one head chef in a restaurant. Whoever is teaching the class has command of the floor, even if there is someone of higher rank (instructor level or dan level) on the floor. Even if a senior is supervising the class being taught by a lower level, it's still the instructor on the floor who teaches, plain and simple.

While it's true that virtually all of our instructors are black belts (a few exceptions exist), the converse is not necessarily true.

 

[KempoGuy06]

In a nutshell, no. Does it happen? Sadly, way too often.

This right here is the simple and best answer. There are cases that cant be judged individually but on a whole no they shouldnt. One might argue that in the case of female students they should be allowed to at 16 since they are usually more mature than their opposite sex counterparts but for simplicity 18 should be the minimum for both sexes

B

 

[Cyriacus]

This right here is the simple and best answer. There are cases that cant be judged individually but on a whole no they shouldnt. One might argue that in the case of female students they should be allowed to at 16 since they are usually more mature than their opposite sex counterparts but for simplicity 18 should be the minimum for both sexes

B

Females? More Mature at around 16?

Wow, this Country must be Backward.
Just Last Week a Spectator asked, that if She Joined Up, if Shed get "One of those Pretty Belts". Youd have to have heard the way it was said.

Thats only One Example, but ive yet to see anything more than a Balance, in people between 15-25 in terms of Maturity.

 

[Black Belt Jedi]

This right here is the simple and best answer. There are cases that cant be judged individually but on a whole no they shouldnt. One might argue that in the case of female students they should be allowed to at 16 since they are usually more mature than their opposite sex counterparts but for simplicity 18 should be the minimum for both sexes

B

Hmmm...I don't fully believe that maturity depends on gender. It depends more on the individual.

 

[KempoGuy06]

Females? More Mature at around 16?

Wow, this Country must be Backward.
Just Last Week a Spectator asked, that if She Joined Up, if Shed get "One of those Pretty Belts". Youd have to have heard the way it was said.

Thats only One Example, but ive yet to see anything more than a Balance, in people between 15-25 in terms of Maturity.

From what i have seen it is true but that be just the people i have been around and me personally. I was no where near mature enough at 16 to handle a black belt. I base that on my training now and i how i was then but had I started at an earlier age i might have matured quicker

Hmmm...I don't fully believe that maturity depends on gender. It depends more on the individual.

I can agree with that but from my experience it seems to me that females mature faster. Though my opinion might be skewed simply because I teach a handful of teenage boys that have the maturity of 10 a year old. They really arent mature enought, in my opinion at least, to hold the rank they do.

B

 

[Cyriacus]

From what i have seen it is true but that be just the people i have been around and me personally. I was no where near mature enough at 16 to handle a black belt. I base that on my training now and i how i was then but had I started at an earlier age i might have matured quicker

That would make sense.
Who you associate yourself with can certainly affect ones views (Naturally - Its not a Criticism, just to make sure my Text doesnt do anything loopy ), as well as your own Nature.

 

[Saki]

I just can't wrap my mind around it. I don't agree withanyone under 16 getting a Black Belt. I think that if a 16, 17 or 18 year oldgets one- they have to be VERY mature as well as above and beyond the trainingand ability level. A black belt is NOT a 3rd grader's trophy!!! It's somethingmore. We learn something that can/could take another person's life. We havebeen taught an art, a skill that is dangerous. I don't take this lightly. Idon't think they are mature enough as well as their bodies have not matured100%.

I also think it weakens the art as well as water down the style to give kids ablack belt. Over the last 15 years- this seems the norm anyway. I travel a lotand visit about 5 different schools/styles a month. I would say that 80% handout a black belt as long as the contract is signed and the $$$ is paid. I see 8year olds with black belts and they can't even run a basic kata. I don't careif the kid started training at the age of 3- there is still something to besaid about maturity- and really people- that's one thing that is wrong with theworld now- immaturity.

I also don't think you use this as a way to ensure you have a contract. I haveseen "the black belt club"- you pay more for a longer contract thatensures you get a black belt in "X" years. Just sad, so sad.

Maybe I am old fashion- but this is what I see and what seems to be the norm. Imean no offense to anyone. If that is the way you do it- I disagree with it andwon't support it.

respectfully

 

[Cyriacus]

I just can't wrap my mind around it. I don't agree withanyone under 16 getting a Black Belt. I think that if a 16, 17 or 18 year oldgets one- they have to be VERY mature as well as above and beyond the trainingand ability level. A black belt is NOT a 3rd grader's trophy!!! It's somethingmore. We learn something that can/could take another person's life. We havebeen taught an art, a skill that is dangerous. I don't take this lightly. Idon't think they are mature enough as well as their bodies have not matured100%.

I also think it weakens the art as well as water down the style to give kids ablack belt. Over the last 15 years- this seems the norm anyway. I travel a lotand visit about 5 different schools/styles a month. I would say that 80% handout a black belt as long as the contract is signed and the $$$ is paid. I see 8year olds with black belts and they can't even run a basic kata. I don't careif the kid started training at the age of 3- there is still something to besaid about maturity- and really people- that's one thing that is wrong with theworld now- immaturity.

I also don't think you use this as a way to ensure you have a contract. I haveseen "the black belt club"- you pay more for a longer contract thatensures you get a black belt in "X" years. Just sad, so sad.

Maybe I am old fashion- but this is what I see and what seems to be the norm. Imean no offense to anyone. If that is the way you do it- I disagree with it andwon't support it.

respectfully

This is where Society comes into Play.
Depending on Demographic, and Personal Activity, Younger People arent as "Young" as they used to be.
Its why many Arts have had to adapt to new Standard - Because completely Untrained Individuals have Information at their Disposal regarding Fighting and whatnot, that they havent in the Past.
With the Media, and News; Many People over the age of 16 are full well aware of how the World functions.
And Mature as a Result.

Which goes back to Upbringing.
Some Kids are Brought Up in an Immature Environment, and as a Result, remain Immature for some time, before Learning Otherwise.
And Demographic is Key, since different Lifestyles and Atmospheres in Life will also affect someone.
In other ways, its also Television and the Media that tries to make Kids out to be "Childish"; When in Reality, outside of Schools, a Substancial Number of Younger People are actually quite swell.
Then you have Intellectuals, who are much less Biased by "Cliques" and Conforming to Immature Sociality in School Systems, and are more readily Mature as a Result.

Furthermore, anyone who watches any Television is seeing only the Deaths and Tragedy of Day to Day Life - And im sure Plenty are Aware of each Individual Human Life being affected by that.
Now, do these Adolescents react to this the same way some Older People might, by being Profoundly Empathetic?
Probably Not.
But it doesnt make them Less Mature, since more and more People are just Accepting these things, and perhaps *Appearing* Ignorant to them as a Result.

My Point is, dont Generalise an Entire Population based on the Childish, Undeveloped Stereotype.
Im sure its Accurate of some places, but not all.
If a 17 Year Old is as Mature as any Adult, why hold him back?
Why Insist that he me *MORE* Mature than an Adult, just because of his Age; When Day to Day Life Exposes People to the World Drastically more than it used to.

Im not trying to Change your Opinion, though.
Just offering some Retrospect.

As for Physical Development; Physical Development does not affect Skill.
If the Student is doing things at a Black Belt Level, the same was as any First Degree, without Fault (By the Standards of a 1st Dan); They should be Held Back, because theyll be Better than a First Degree in a few Years?

Just My Contribution.

 

[KempoGuy06]

This is where Society comes into Play.
Depending on Demographic, and Personal Activity, Younger People arent as "Young" as they used to be.
Its why many Arts have had to adapt to new Standard - Because completely Untrained Individuals have Information at their Disposal regarding Fighting and whatnot, that they havent in the Past.
With the Media, and News; Many People over the age of 16 are full well aware of how the World functions.
And Mature as a Result.

Which goes back to Upbringing.
Some Kids are Brought Up in an Immature Environment, and as a Result, remain Immature for some time, before Learning Otherwise.
And Demographic is Key, since different Lifestyles and Atmospheres in Life will also affect someone.
In other ways, its also Television and the Media that tries to make Kids out to be "Childish"; When in Reality, outside of Schools, a Substancial Number of Younger People are actually quite swell.
Then you have Intellectuals, who are much less Biased by "Cliques" and Conforming to Immature Sociality in School Systems, and are more readily Mature as a Result.

Furthermore, anyone who watches any Television is seeing only the Deaths and Tragedy of Day to Day Life - And im sure Plenty are Aware of each Individual Human Life being affected by that.
Now, do these Adolescents react to this the same way some Older People might, by being Profoundly Empathetic?
Probably Not.
But it doesnt make them Less Mature, since more and more People are just Accepting these things, and perhaps *Appearing* Ignorant to them as a Result.

My Point is, dont Generalise an Entire Population based on the Childish, Undeveloped Stereotype.
Im sure its Accurate of some places, but not all.
If a 17 Year Old is as Mature as any Adult, why hold him back?
Why Insist that he me *MORE* Mature than an Adult, just because of his Age; When Day to Day Life Exposes People to the World Drastically more than it used to.

Im not trying to Change your Opinion, though.
Just offering some Retrospect.

As for Physical Development; Physical Development does not affect Skill.
If the Student is doing things at a Black Belt Level, the same was as any First Degree, without Fault (By the Standards of a 1st Dan); They should be Held Back, because theyll be Better than a First Degree in a few Years?

Just My Contribution.

I like what you have said here a lot. It breaks down how TV and media are desensitizing children and forcing them to grow up and mature faster. My problem with this is while on the outside a child/person, whatever word you want to use, may appear to be able to handle these situations presented to them, mentally they may not be able to cope with it.

An example: A person under 16 with a black belt is attacked on the streets. They use the moves and techniques they were taught to defend themselves and end up seriously injuring or killing the attacker.

Now i know this is a worse case scenario but worst case scenarios are ofter the best ones to use to illustrate a point clearly. Someone under 16 is not going to be able to handle the emotional trauma that would come with taking someones life. That doesnt mean that someone 18 or over would be able to deal with it better but as they have had more life experience it would certainly give them a better chance.

Now i can hear some people saying, "16 and 18 really arent all that different". Really?! Think back to when you were 16 and what you cared about and what you dreamed about and then think back to when you were 18. For me they were entirely different. Though i maybe an extreme example. By 18 i had already lost 2 friends to violence, i had been in multiple scrapes with the law and had developed a serious alcohol and drug problem. Even so, without the experiences that I went through 16 and 18 are vastly different ages in regards to mental maturity.

So my point in all this rambling is that under no circumstances should someone under the age of 16 receive a black belt. I honestly feel that 18 is the lowest age that they should be awarded. At 18 you are old enough to fight for our country and are looked at as an adult by the law so therefor you should be able to handle the responsibilities of a black belt as well as take any repercussions that would come from misrepresenting what a black belt should be.

But, i do feel that 16 and 17 year old should be evaluated on an individual bases. Monitor their progress and technique closely. See how they handle themselves with students both older and younger than they are. After that if they meet the requirements of the instructor and the school then by all means they deserve a black belt

my .02

B

 

[Cyriacus]

I like what you have said here a lot. It breaks down how TV and media are desensitizing children and forcing them to grow up and mature faster. My problem with this is while on the outside a child/person, whatever word you want to use, may appear to be able to handle these situations presented to them, mentally they may not be able to cope with it.

Yes.

An example: A person under 16 with a black belt is attacked on the streets. They use the moves and techniques they were taught to defend themselves and end up seriously injuring or killing the attacker.

Or Maiming. Which could be just as bad.

Now i know this is a worse case scenario but worst case scenarios are ofter the best ones to use to illustrate a point clearly. Someone under 16 is not going to be able to handle the emotional trauma that would come with taking someones life. That doesnt mean that someone 18 or over would be able to deal with it better but as they have had more life experience it would certainly give them a better chance.

Well, they might. Someone Rational and Clear Headed should feel bad, but they should be able to live with it. If someone tries to Murder you with a Knife, for example, and you reflexively disarm them and kill them in one swift action; They are the one who attacked you. But, an Older Person will be better able to Rationalize this.

Now i can hear some people saying, "16 and 18 really arent all that different". Really?! Think back to when you were 16 and what you cared about and what you dreamed about and then think back to when you were 18. For me they were entirely different. Though i maybe an extreme example. By 18 i had already lost 2 friends to violence, i had been in multiple scrapes with the law and had developed a serious alcohol and drug problem. Even so, without the experiences that I went through 16 and 18 are vastly different ages in regards to mental maturity.

Maturity aside, take Training. Every Month, ill think back to how I Trained the last Month, and wonder why I missed such Obvious Improvements. Its the same with Age. I once read; "Every Time You Age By A Decade, You Will Probably Be Thinking, 'Im Glad Im Not The Fool I Was 10 Years Ago.'"
Also, Salutations on overcoming these Habits, Good Sir

So my point in all this rambling is that under no circumstances should someone under the age of 16 receive a black belt. I honestly feel that 18 is the lowest age that they should be awarded. At 18 you are old enough to fight for our country and are looked at as an adult by the law so therefor you should be able to handle the responsibilities of a black belt as well as take any repercussions that would come from misrepresenting what a black belt should be.

There is of course, one flipside. If someone is, going by my System, a Brown Belt; Even if theyre not given a Black Belt, they might be Functioning at a Black Belt Level, despite not wearing the Belt to show it.

But, i do feel that 16 and 17 year old should be evaluated on an individual bases. Monitor their progress and technique closely. See how they handle themselves with students both older and younger than they are. After that if they meet the requirements of the instructor and the school then by all means they deserve a black belt

And this is why I think Junior Black Belts are a good idea. It acknowledges their Skill and Understanding, but its also just short of 1st Dan. Then when they come of Age, they Re-test, and get their Black Belt. Having said that, thats just a Formality. But its perhaps a Good Formality.

my .02

B

My Contribution, in Bold Text Form, since Splitting up Quotes takes me WAY longer than id like to spend replying to things. *Insert Smiley Of Some Kind Here*

 

[KempoGuy06]

Yes

Or Maiming. Which could be just as bad.

I agree. Maiming could be just as bed, especially if it cause permanent paralysis.

Well, they might. Someone Rational and Clear Headed should feel bad, but they should be able to live with it. If someone tries to Murder you with a Knife, for example, and you reflexively disarm them and kill them in one swift action; They are the one who attacked you. But, an Older Person will be better able to Rationalize this.

I agree. If someone comes at you with the intent to kill you and you take their life, then so be it. You should feel some remorse that you took A life but not that particular persons life. This may make me sound cold and indifferent but I dont care to be honest...LOL. I dont really like to use the generalization that older is better. I know plenty of older people who are better set in life but are WAY more irrational and less mature than i am.

Maturity aside, take Training. Every Month, ill think back to how I Trained the last Month, and wonder why I missed such Obvious Improvements. Its the same with Age. I once read; "Every Time You Age By A Decade, You Will Probably Be Thinking, 'Im Glad Im Not The Fool I Was 10 Years Ago.'"
Also, Salutations on overcoming these Habits, Good Sir

This is one of those debate that could have no end i believe. Training and Maturity i mean. They go hand in hand if you look at it. The more you train than obviously the better martial artist you should become, but realizing what improves and what needs improvement is a true sign of maturity. A perfect example is kids, how many times have you tried to correct a kids stance, form, tech...etc and they look at you like you are stupid? Maturity. Of course i have had plenty of adults do this as well and they are always more fun to correct

And thank you. It was a hard road wrought with many bad memories and decisions but ones i wouldnt trade for the world oddly enough. They have made me who i am.

There is of course, one flipside. If someone is, going by my System, a Brown Belt; Even if theyre not given a Black Belt, they might be Functioning at a Black Belt Level, despite not wearing the Belt to show it.

There is a flipside to everything and this is a perfect example. In my system we have 3 degrees of brown then black then 10 degrees of black. At my school currently there is a 3rd degree brown (1st level of brown just incase you are unaware) who acts like a black belt day in and day out. of course he is 33 i believe but all the same he shows the mental maturity for the rank before he has it.

And this is why I think Junior Black Belts are a good idea. It acknowledges their Skill and Understanding, but its also just short of 1st Dan. Then when they come of Age, they Re-test, and get their Black Belt. Having said that, thats just a Formality. But its perhaps a Good Formality.

I like this idea and i have seen it used at other places. The local McDojo uses this system as well but most black belts and higher coming out of those buildings have the mental maturity of a rock. I hate to speak ill of the place but as of late I have heard bad rumors and mutterings about it and some of them are a seriously slap in the face to passionate MA'ists.

My Contribution, in Bold Text Form, since Splitting up Quotes takes me WAY longer than id like to spend replying to things. *Insert Smiley Of Some Kind Here*

No problem. I have plenty of time at work so i have no problem splitting things up....it is friday after all

B

 

[ATACX GYM]

This topic can be quite a popular one when talking about Martial Arts in the modern world. I was wondering if any of you agree if Karate students under 16 should be Black Belts? I see that being a Black Belt has so much responsibility from not only teaching classes for all age groups, but having the right attitude and being a good role model for others.

Any thoughts?

Depends on what one's definition of a BB is. If it's merely a matter of curriculum and memorizing "x" number of techs which you can regurgitate on demand? It's wholly possible. If,however,you demand personal growth,exceptional levels of skill,a specific and generally unattainable reach of maturity for most teens,keen teaching acumen,a particular kind and amount of literal life experience,specific kinds of character attributes that have to be developed for a specific period of time? I can't see how a 16 year old can be a BB with THOSE kinds of requirements. They haven't been alive long enough to qualify.

There is no way that someone under 18 will get a BB from me. I have never given a BB even to an 18 year old (although my 9 year old son is on track to get his by age 18-21). The youngest Black Belt that I have ever had is 26 years old. Nobody ever complained about it.

 

[ATACX GYM]

wasn't unheard of even 35 years ago. I know when i made shodan (at 16) i was welcomed by more than a few others who were closer to 12....

damn