Young Black Belts

[Kacey]

As for the black belt student, the fault lies with the Instructor who apparently never taught him proper respect and manners. Only part of training is physical. It is the Instructor's job to also instill in these students the obligations that go along with black belt, and they are many.

The obligations of the belt... sure. Respect and manners should be taught by the parents before anyone else.

 

[Andrew Green]

My attempt at a joke it seems, was missed

That's ok, I understand what you are saying, I do a similar thing. The kids learn submissions, but the match ends when the position is locked, not when they tap out. So if it's a armbar, once the arm is straight its over, no pressure until they tap.

However they do still get to finish there submissions, on the adults. They just don't have submissions finished on them.

Well, we practice many wrist and arms locks. Although we are careful to be sensitive to our partner's level of pain, we recognize that a child on average cannot have the same level of awareness and so he can be dangerous to others AND himself if he doesn't know when to tap or when to back up a bit. Also children's joints are obviously still developing. We would rather not risk hurting them in a way that could affect the growth of their limbs for years to come.

Also consider some of the deadlier moves common in traditional karate, like strikes to the temples or the throat. Do you really want to train that material with a child who may not have the judgement to use the knowledge in an appropriate context? There is a difference between life and death self-defense and just warding off the schoolyard bully...

 

[terryl965]

I don't have a problem with Junior Black Belts as long they are recognized as such and it is established they will not be doing the same things as the adult black belts.
I also don't think junior dans (poom dans) should teach adults. Would you want to pay a monthly fee and be taught by a 13 year old?

Junior BB should only be helping with class and for the record my oldest is 13 going on 14 in march and yes he can teach, for those lucky enough to have seen him, he is a natureal just like a scolar at school. Why is it a student can go to college get a degree and be working software or science at the age of 13-14 but in MA it cannot be done.

 

[gblnking]

Junior BB should only be helping with class and for the record my oldest is 13 going on 14 in march and yes he can teach, for those lucky enough to have seen him, he is a natureal just like a scolar at school. Why is it a student can go to college get a degree and be working software or science at the age of 13-14 but in MA it cannot be done.

Simple. That 14 year old who gets the college degree (few) and works in the software and science fields isn't teaching others. They're not responsible for shaping young minds or educating adults.
A 13-14 year old martial artist can be good or even exceptional for their age group but I doubt he has a lot of real world experience to back it up with.
I for one wouldn't feel confident in a teenage "black belt" teacher. I have a teenager as well, and she is exceptional in many ways but she is still pron to the usual mix of teenage issues.

 

[sensei lengyel 4th don]

I agree you must be at least 16 to be a young blackbelt. i seen kids that are blackbelts and cant even tie there obi the wright way. or have the maturey level to respect themselves or there system,or must of all RESPECT for there instructor!!!!!

 

[sensei lengyel 4th don]

I agree you must be at least 16 to be a young blackbelt. i seen kids that are blackbelts and cant even tie there obi the wright way. or have the maturity level to respect themselves or there system,or must of all RESPECT for there instructor1

 

[sensei lengyel 4th don]

I agree blackbelts should be at least 16 to obtain there blackbelts. I have seen young blackbelts that tie there odi the wrong way.. but I also seen young blackbelts that has the leadership skills to be a blackbelt. at the age of 10. that because some styles have different ways to receive a blackbelt.

 

[Brad Dunne]

Here is something for additional consideration. The age that someone can be tried as an adult in court is 16. The age that some states permit driving is 16. For those who watch the history channel, we have seen the age a boy becomes a man in many cultures is 16. So where does that leave us? Your school, your discipline and your organization has the right to dictate what is appropriate for you/them. The students/parents inturn, agree to this positioning, or should have, prior to starting instructions. I have seen the good and the bad from young BB's and the good will always be overshadowed by the bad.

As for an instructor being tasked to instill good values, well that's not really his/her job. All they can do is provide the proper atmosphere and appropriate training and show a correct attitude. If the parents haven't instilled these correct traits in their children, how in the world can an instructor do it on a modified part time basis. Granted, there's always the exception, but that's just it, it's an exception, not the norm.

 

[Bodhisattva]

This is the problem that occurs when belts are given out on some basis other than PERFORMANCE. And by that, I mean performance against a resisting opponnent.

The beauty of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is that you guys would never ben having this issue - if the 16 year old could "hang" with the black belts, he'd eventually be a black belt. That means - he wrestles with the black belts, shows the same ability to apply his techniques on a resisting opponent as a black belt, then he would get his black belt.

In martial arts, performance should be the only measure for belts and ranks.

 

[terryl965]

Simple. That 14 year old who gets the college degree (few) and works in the software and science fields isn't teaching others. They're not responsible for shaping young minds or educating adults.
A 13-14 year old martial artist can be good or even exceptional for their age group but I doubt he has a lot of real world experience to back it up with.
I for one wouldn't feel confident in a teenage "black belt" teacher. I have a teenager as well, and she is exceptional in many ways but she is still pron to the usual mix of teenage issues.

Iam talking teaching techniques, so lets make that clear. Oh by the way I've seen so many adults teaching SD principle without any real world experiences. So where does that leave us, the exact same place it did before no where. MA has been around for every almost every single MA person I know believe Bruce Lee was the absolute well here is a tidbit he never had a BB in any Art so how can he be a great teacher, it was they way he tought and his own concept. He made people think outside the box for themself.

How many poster in this thread or threads like them have any real world SD experience few I bet, so that means they cannot teach without it how can they teach. Sorry that was absolutely scarcaism, and my apologies to everyone just trying to make a point.

 

[MJS]

Well I look at it like this we allow junior BB because the Kukkiwon allows them. My sons are Junior BB and handle themself very well do they know everything NO, but look at it like this do we, No. Being a marttial artist is a lifetime journey and the belt you wear does not mean anything if you do not respect it and those that have giving it to you. Well I'm not for it or against it but I rather just say each there own.

I agree with part of this. You're right, we don't know everything...at least I don't. I still learn with every lesson I take. Interestingly enough, I was taking an Arnis lesson last night. My inst. commented that many times, when people test, they just do the bare minimum to pass the test. Sure, this is fine if you're a low ranking belt, but, once you reach the upper ranks, you should be doing more than the bare minimum. You should be able to do more than that. You should be performing at a different level. I have to say that I agree with this.

Is a 12 yo 2nd degree BB going to comprehend things on the same level as say a 30 yo 2nd degree?

You brought up a good point when you said the belt we wear doesn't mean anything. As I've said, its the knowledge and skill, to name a few things, that the person has, that means more than any belt. But, when people see someone walking around with a black belt, and possibly one that has stripes on it, the average person is going to assume that the person must know something.

The problem, or at least one of the problems stems from the fact that many times, its not a case of knowing the material well, but the fact that the person has met the standard time frame for rank advancement, thus, regardless of whether or not they know or can perform anything, they still get promoted. 9 times out of 10, when a person enrolls, either themselves or their child in a martial arts program, one of the first things they inquire about is rank and how long it takes to advance.

Mike

 

[MJS]

I don't have a problem with Junior Black Belts as long they are recognized as such and it is established they will not be doing the same things as the adult black belts.
I also don't think junior dans (poom dans) should teach adults. Would you want to pay a monthly fee and be taught by a 13 year old?

Agreed. Now, its one thing if the person is 17, 18, 21, etc., but younger than that...they should be working with people their own age IMO.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Iam talking teaching techniques, so lets make that clear. Oh by the way I've seen so many adults teaching SD principle without any real world experiences. So where does that leave us, the exact same place it did before no where. MA has been around for every almost every single MA person I know believe Bruce Lee was the absolute well here is a tidbit he never had a BB in any Art so how can he be a great teacher, it was they way he tought and his own concept. He made people think outside the box for themself.

How many poster in this thread or threads like them have any real world SD experience few I bet, so that means they cannot teach without it how can they teach. Sorry that was absolutely scarcaism, and my apologies to everyone just trying to make a point.

I quoted gblnkings post for reference. The person who gets the college education at that age, which is rare, is not responsible at that time, for teaching others. As far as the real world experience goes....if that was a pre-requisite for teaching, how many schools would be in operation today? Has everyone faced a gun, a knife, more than 1 opponent, or been attacked by the vast array of methods, such as choke, bearhug, wrist grab, etc.? So, what do we do? We use the methods, concepts, teachings, etc., of others who have faced those situations, as a stepping stone. Additionally, IMO, it all comes down to how its being taught. Are we having a compliant opponent with a rubber knife attack us, or are we putting some realism into it, ie: no lie blade or something similar so we can see the 'cuts', an aggressive opponent, ie: someone really trying to cut us? Is a 12,13, or 14 yo old capable of doing that? If so, then it shows that they're an exception to the rule. If not, then they should be teaching people in their own age group IMO.

Simple. That 14 year old who gets the college degree (few) and works in the software and science fields isn't teaching others. They're not responsible for shaping young minds or educating adults.
A 13-14 year old martial artist can be good or even exceptional for their age group but I doubt he has a lot of real world experience to back it up with.
I for one wouldn't feel confident in a teenage "black belt" teacher. I have a teenager as well, and she is exceptional in many ways but she is still pron to the usual mix of teenage issues.

 

[jks9199]

Originally Posted by jks9199
Maturity and rank aren't the same thing.

I agree.

Actually... thinking on it, I'll add that maturity and experience aren't the same thing, either.

I'm sure you've seen guys nearing retirement with one year of experience, 20 times -- sometimes with lots of brass on their collars at work. And I'm sure we've all seen the high ranked black belt who hasn't got the basics you'd expect in a mid to low ranked under belt.

 

[jks9199]

This is the problem that occurs when belts are given out on some basis other than PERFORMANCE. And by that, I mean performance against a resisting opponnent.

The beauty of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is that you guys would never ben having this issue - if the 16 year old could "hang" with the black belts, he'd eventually be a black belt. That means - he wrestles with the black belts, shows the same ability to apply his techniques on a resisting opponent as a black belt, then he would get his black belt.

In martial arts, performance should be the only measure for belts and ranks.

The problem is that there really is no one definition for a "black belt." We say it's "mastery", but of what? In some styles, it's a high level of mastery of the style. In others, it's mastery of the basic material so that they can learn the more advanced material. In some, it's all about who you can outfight (do they demote you as you age and can no longer hold your own?), but others have no fighting aspect. Sometimes, the answer depends on who you're asking about...

It's kind of like trying to decide who the best chef is, but having one prepare pizza, another classical French cousine, and another reheat a TV dinner. You can't compare them that way... and you can't really compare black belts across styles, either. Is it fair for a system where you can typically anticipate at least 2 years as a white belt to have that student compete against someone who spends a few months as a white belt? Can you really compare the two evenly?

 

[Hand Sword]

After considering the behavior I see on the job from teens on up, I'd say a good age bracket would be 25-30 years old. Most of our cultural views come from an age past, where 16-18 year olds were more mature, got and stayed married, etc... Today, with all of the coddling, pampering, etc... people don't seem to have a clue until age 25. At least that's what I see and deal with.

After all, the study of the arts is a lifelong journey right? There should be no hurry with belt ranking. Let the person and techniques mature fully.

At least that's what I would want to see done. I know it's not a realistic view.

 

[YoungMan]

Regarding an earlier post:
I agree parents should be teaching manners and etiquette before anyone. However, what I am referring to is the obligation of Instructors to teach their black belt students martial arts manners and etiquette. Specifically, how a black belt should act as a black belt in regards to his relations with other people and students. Some of this common sense, some of this is specific to certain styles and arts.
And keep in mind, many parents do not do this, as a short walk around Wal-Mart will prove.

 

[gblnking]

Iam talking teaching techniques, so lets make that clear. Oh by the way I've seen so many adults teaching SD principle without any real world experiences. So where does that leave us, the exact same place it did before no where. MA has been around for every almost every single MA person I know believe Bruce Lee was the absolute well here is a tidbit he never had a BB in any Art so how can he be a great teacher, it was they way he tought and his own concept. He made people think outside the box for themself.

How many poster in this thread or threads like them have any real world SD experience few I bet, so that means they cannot teach without it how can they teach. Sorry that was absolutely scarcaism, and my apologies to everyone just trying to make a point.

Sorry, sometimes I tend to not be very clear on my point of view so I’ll try to rectify that here.
1) Real world experience doesn’t exclusively equal self - defense. Real world not only encompasses fighting it also means avoiding fights, defusing aggressive encounters both in the school and outside of it. Real world means having enough experience in working within groups and being comfortable in a leadership role. Etc, etc, etc. Just because one may know precise techniques doesn’t necessarily mean that they can convey them in an understandable way. I had a teacher years ago that was athletically gifted. His fighting style was solid, his technique was dead on. But he couldn’t teach worth a crap. On the other hand my current teacher’s understanding of the fighting style is dead on as well, but his teaching ability is solid. He knows how to not only teach the curriculum as well as how to get you to understand it. He knows how to facilitate the class if it starts to loose focus and he knows how to add the right amount of levity when necessary. These are traits not learned in a class but developed through years of experience dealing with real world relationships, jobs, and organizations. Not something that a teenager posses yet.
2) I guess MJS said it best:

“Agreed. Now, its one thing if the person is 17, 18, 21, etc., but younger than that...they should be working with people their own age IMO.”

I can’t argue with that

 

[chinto01]

Thanks everyone for your replies. They are about what I thought they would be. This brings up another question. My sensei tells stories about how on Okinawa he did not begin his training until he was 13 years old. Even then he had to be introduced and accepted by his sensei. Part of this introduction was a form of testing that he had to go through where he was only permitted to watch classes in the beginning. He also worked on his teachers farm as a form of payment. This is not the first case I have heard of where a form of testing occurred. It is also not the first I have heard about the age at which some of the forefathers had started, between the ages of 11-13 seems to be the norm. Do you think that there was a reason for this? Also are there any thoughts as to who started teaching students as young as 4?

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[MJS]

Thanks everyone for your replies. They are about what I thought they would be. This brings up another question. My sensei tells stories about how on Okinawa he did not begin his training until he was 13 years old. Even then he had to be introduced and accepted by his sensei. Part of this introduction was a form of testing that he had to go through where he was only permitted to watch classes in the beginning. He also worked on his teachers farm as a form of payment. This is not the first case I have heard of where a form of testing occurred. It is also not the first I have heard about the age at which some of the forefathers had started, between the ages of 11-13 seems to be the norm. Do you think that there was a reason for this?

I wasn't around back in those days, but I can only assume that the training was very different back then. It was hard core, class was serious, lots of contact, no fear of lawsuits, and you worked for and earned your belt with blood, sweat and tears. I'm guessing that you had to show some sort of dedication prior to be accepted. Of course, nothing like this happens today, because if it did, there would hardly be any schools open.

Also are there any thoughts as to who started teaching students as young as 4?

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

No idea.