Age limit for Black Belts?

[KenpoDragon]

I would like to know everyone's input on this one, do you believe that there should be an age limit for someone to be promoted to a Black Belt??? I just read on another martial arts forum about a 9 year old testing for his Black Belt. Can a 9 year old kid really have the knowledge that a Black Belt should have??? Can a 9 year old kid have the maturity level that a Black Belt should have??? Can a 9 year old kid have the control a Black Belt should have??? Can a 9 year old kid understand the potential for damage of what they are doing??? I personally wouldn't promote anyone under the age of 16. That's just my opinion though, I would very much like to hear everyone elses opinion.:asian:

With honor and respect,
KenpoDragon

 

[Wmarden]

I suppose if the kid can do all the movements of all the various forms., then in certain arts the child could indeed be considered a black belt. Though I question the art that a kid can gain such a high rank so young in. I won't mention any arts, but i recall seeing a young blackbelt younger than me when I was a yellow belt back when I was 10-11.

MY jujitsu sensei won't even teach children because of the maturity issue and safety concerns inherent in an art that emphasizes joint manipulation. So your 16 is about when he might start teaching a person. So I suppose it is perspective.

As for being worried, why worry what people call their students. People do rediculous stupid stuff all the time.

I would certainly worry about the maturity issue with some kids being able to learn some things. When I worked at a mental hospital for children, I heard of a kid at another facility that was a higher belt in some art who was hell on wheels for the staff.

 

[chufeng]

KenpoDragon,

I agree with you...
Even if a kid is REALLY good, I'd wait to promote to black sash until at least 16...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Nightingale]

the thing with kids...

you have to acknowledge their accomplishments and give them feedback. otherwise they get discouraged and quit, which doesn't do you or them any good. Its silly to stop an 11 year old child at 1st brown and make them wait five years to test for black. They're not going to wait around.

What I've seen people do that worked really well....

have junior rankings. The junior belts are colored with a white stripe down the middle. For the junior ranks, the child must learn all forms, but half the techniques (pick the ones that work best for children being attacked by an adult). When the child reaches the rank of "junior" black belt, their belt is a black belt with a white stripe. They then join the adult classes and start to go back and learn what they missed from yellow belt, and receive a black belt with a yellow stripe, then a black belt with an orange stripe, and so on. By the time they go through all of this and receive a regular black belt, they'll be at least 16, or some kind of prodigy (there should always be exceptions... Ms. Diserae Phillips, 2nd Black, age 14, comes to mind here), solving your age issue without actually placing an age limit on it, and keeping the kids in a zone where they can always earn more rank, giving them a goal.

 

[MountainSage]

I am a strong believer in setting an age limit for BB qualification. My concern is that most pre-teen, teens, and a number of twenty somethings don't have the maturity of mind to hold that rank. They can physically complete the requirements, but they don't have maturity or life experiance. Remember the name of the game is getting the most BB in your particular style. I am a TKD person, so I understand this to be important to the higher ups. Masters get promoted for promoting people under them. Keeping in mind that I am 35 yrs old, minimum age should be at least 18 years old and a high school diploma or equivalent. For some that may be to young and others to old based on maturity.

Mountain Sage

 

[chufeng]

Its silly to stop an 11 year old child at 1st brown

I think it's equally as silly to have an 11 year old ikkyu...
I think there should be junior grades for junior students.

I say I will accept students no younger than seven...but I've never had a student younger than fifteen who actually stayed.
Why? Because real training is hard work and requires a lot of concentration and, yes, it is boring, at times...

I won't dumb down the system because of someone's age...

Now, if I had an all children's class, I could structure a program with activities that seem like games...keep all blocks of instruction to twenty minutes and then move on to something else...etc. But I am not running a day care and I don't get paid.

Many "schools" rely on the revenue of the junior students to keep the doors of the dojo open...so, they cater to the kids...fine with me, but don't promote them before they are REALLY ready.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[karatekid1975]

In both TKD schools I was in, there is an age limit. You have to be 16 to get a BB. Under that, you get a JR BB. The kids training is modified for safety reasons. If they already have a Jr BB, when they hit 16, they have to re-learn the adult stuff, and test for the real thing.

 

[ace]

Originally posted by KenpoDragon
I would like to know everyone's input on this one, do you believe that there should be an age limit for someone to be promoted to a Black Belt??? I just read on another martial arts forum about a 9 year old testing for his Black Belt. Can a 9 year old kid really have the knowledge that a Black Belt should have??? Can a 9 year old kid have the maturity level that a Black Belt should have??? Can a 9 year old kid have the control a Black Belt should have??? Can a 9 year old kid understand the potential for damage of what they are doing??? I personally wouldn't promote anyone under the age of 16. That's just my opinion though, I would very much like to hear everyone elses opinion.:asian:

With honor and respect,
KenpoDragon

I say YES!!! there should be an age limit of at leats 18.
But it it would kill the BIZZ side to Martial Arts.
_____

 

[John Bishop]

Kajukenbo policy is no one is promoted to black belt until they are 18. We feel it is a adult responsibility and honor.

 

[KenpoDragon]

One of the main reasons I posted this was some of the things I have witnessed in my martial arts lifetime. In my old school there was a Junior BB, he was about 9 or 10, he was not promoted by my instructor,but by my instructor's instructor. My old instructor would always say that he personally would not have promoted the kid. After getting his Junior BB, he started in the adult class. He was half the size of everyone else in the class, everyone was like is this a joke??? A child, even a Junior BB can't go with an adult especially one twice his size and skill level. I remember one time we were doing the ring of fire, it's the clock principal for those of you who don't know,i.e 1 guy at 12, 1 guy at 3, 1 guy at 6, 1 guy at 9, and all the other numbers in between.It's a multiple attacker situation.Anyways there I was dead center and I'm taking out this guy taking out that guy, and then this kid throws a punch at me, so instead of poundinig him into the ground, I took it easy on him and just got him in a wrist lock. He started to cry!!! Unbelievable, a Black Belt crying come on! I know he was only a kid, but honestly stay in the kids class, don't try and be in the adult class. Nobody respected him after that, they just made jokes about him. My point is this, if your not an adult don't pretend to be one. I have also witnessed a 13 year old girl get her Junior BB, I was there for the test sitting on the board. She was the instructors daughter, all I kept thinking was man I feel sorry for you if you ever get into a real fight. Her partner/opponent had to keep acting like what she was doing was working, the reason I say this is I had worked out with her the week before. After the test and she was promoted, I asked her partner/opponent if what she did actually worked, he replied nope I just helped her out a little. I do believe in kids studying the martial arts, but I don't think that they are mature enough to hold the title of Black Belt or Black Sash. Think about all the people who get a major ego after they get their Black Belts. That can get you into some serious trouble.

Sincerely,
KenpoDragon:asian:

 

[karatekid1975]

My school has a seperate class for Jr BB's. Just because they get their BB, doesn't make them adults. There is a special Jr Black belt class for them. Yes, they are black belts and they need to work on that level, but they are not adults, so they stay with that class. That's until they turn 16.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

Originally posted by karatekid1975
My school has a seperate class for Jr BB's. Just because they get their BB, doesn't make them adults. There is a special Jr Black belt class for them. Yes, they are black belts and they need to work on that level, but they are not adults, so they stay with that class. That's until they turn 16.

This how I look at it. The Belt is just a color. The color of the belt doesn't make you a better fighter/ martial artist, or teacher. What makes a difference if they are black or yellow belt. I have seen kids start in the MA get to brown belt say at 13 and then havef to wait for another 5 years for BB. About 95% of the time that 13 year old will quit the MA. To me our youth is the future of the MA. Most of us that teach have more kids than adults students, how will the art grow if everyone quits. Other than money and moving, kids get bored with activities that they can't excell at, and they will move on to something else. I do believe jr BB are not the same as BB. But why shouldn't kids have a JR. BB. I don't teach my kids everything that my adults need to know. My kids BB is about adult green or 1st brown belt. Why 16 or 18? Just seen a artical saying people don't reach adulthood till 26. Why not make people have to become 26 before reaching BB. The reason, martial arts will kill it's self.
Bob




:asian:

 

[karatekid1975]

I donno, but that just how my instructor runs the school. He has his reasons why, and I can't tell you why, because I don't know. I may run my future school differently. Who knows.

 

[DAC..florida]

I also agree that any student under the age of 16 who has met the requirements to be promoted to BB should be considered a jr. BB until they reach the age of 16 and then they will be allowed to test for there BB


:asian:

 

[Deaf]

This is a very voliatile subject really. You are going to get the "extreme" old school people response of "Hell NO!" A kid is a kid but like the one of the previous posts, our children are our future.

If we do hold back then eventually what we know that we do not pass on, will wither and die.

I myself do not not agree with a 9 year old full fledged black belt and have witnessed many of them back in my tang soo do/shotokan days. However, those kids continued to train in the kids classes, which I do NOT have a problem with.

Jr. Black Belts are a good idea however they should continue to train in their respective age classes. Once they turn 16 or above then consideration to training in an adult class can be taken and the journey towards full fledged black belt can be taken. Special care should be taken though to keep the student motiviated and "Keep the dream" alive so that they do not get discouraged.

A very touchy subject indeed with many opinions and paths that can be considered and taken. Choose wisely!

~Deaf~

 

[Yari]

When I grade somebody, either for at belt or a competition, I do it by see how "imperfect" it is. The lower the perfection, the lower belt.

When were up to BB, it's not only the technique it self, but conduct, how the techniques interacte ( which would mean some kind of sparring), and a general understanding of the techniques and social skills.

I havn't seen any kids being able to fulfill these criteria, but if they could, I would have to let them have the black belt. But to be honest, I don't think they ever will.

In the end, it's not about the black belt, it's about a certain level of understandment, which craves a special mentality and maturaty(sp?).

/Yari

 

[MountainSage]

Yari, you make a very good and important point. Kenpojujitsu, if a thirteen year old quits because of age requirement then hold the door open and thank them for coming as they leave. If money makes the decisions then that's not MA, that's business. MA will survive because there are those special individuals out there that will preservere no matter what the challenge. All schools don't have a jr. program to seperate younger participants. 16 or 18 years old maybe an arbortrary age level, but you have to start somewhere.

Mountain Sage

 

[Kirk]

A friend of mine studies kendo .. which I know is a sport MA .. but
he went to a huge kendo dojo in Japan, and he said there's 10 yr
old b.b.'s there ... quite a few.

 

[MountainSage]

This is been a reoccuring statement on this forum since I have been a part, no slam to you kirk. You can not compare MA in the Asian culture to MA is the US culture. MA in Asia train in class 3-4 hours 5 days per week, then addition time on their own outside of class. Thats 15-20 hours + per week, there are few of us that can boast that kind of class time training. As far as maturity, its expected, no questions asked in the Asian Culture. In the US teen and pre-teens are given a lot of leeway.

Mountain Sage

 

[Kirk]

I didn't take it as a slam bud, just a good discussion/debate.
In the IKCA curriculum, there is no min. age for a student to start,
correct? If a student starts at age 6, I don't think it'd take 12
years for him to learn that curriculum (most cases). So once he
completes the very same curriculum that adults complete for b.b.,
he is awarded a jr black belt. IMO that means that he can defend
himself well against kids his age/height/weight and probably a
bit more. Once 18, he can test the same exact test he took at
whatever age, and get awarded his "regular" b.b.

I think 2 belts SHOULD BE awarded ..jr, and normal. A jr blackbelt
does NOT mean the same as a regular b.b. It should mean that
he is above the maturity level for his/her age, and can defend
himself against those of slightly older than he. The ONLY problem
that I really have with this is around age 11 or 12. Some kids hit
puberty early .. I remember a guy in my 4th grade class .. hit
puberty WELL before the rest of us .. had a bassy voice, and was
humongous compared to the rest of us. He could have beaten
any one of us down, I'm sure m.a. training or not. So I think it
should be can expectedly defend himself against someone just
slightly taller/heavier.