questions about TKD

[Manny]

Well..... anybody can tell me why we keep teaching mainly kicks inside our dojangs if we are not ok about this? I mean in this forum everybody have been telling about TKD is a balanced martial art, that is more then just kicking and more than just olimpic or WTF style sparring, etc,etc,etc.... so why we are not changin the way we teach and try to retake TKD as it is.. a martial art from korea?

So many tkdoings are complaining about the credibility about TKD as a martial art but we are not doing a thing to get rid of the sport side in some degree to take the old way againg about TKD teaching and training.

Manny

 

[dancingalone]

I don't believe in general this premise is true. The TKD & TSD schools in my area whatever their affiliation teach a good balance of hand strikes and kicks along with other fare like forms, one steps, and self-defense techniques. It makes sense really as the majority of studios out there must cater to 'ordinary' students that have average athleticism and limited time in which to practice, so we can't fill the entire class time with kicking even if we wanted to. The students would drop from exhaustion.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I suspect that those here who talk about TKD being more than just kicking also teach TKD as more than just kicking.

 

[sopraisso]

I suspect that those here who talk about TKD being more than just kicking also teach TKD as more than just kicking.

That is certainly my case. I run a small class in the school where I train, and I believe to follow a more balanced curriculum that actually even shows a prevalence of hand techniques over kicks, also including a few locks and throws, and a lot about fighting principles and strategies. Our techniques are basically taken from forms. However, I had to have a delicate talk with my grandmaster so he'd allow me to change the focus of the school specifically in my classes -- the other classes do have that kicking focus, and all applications are aimed at sport or there's no fighting applications talk at all.
In my ciy sadly what Manny seems to describe is really the norm, and I believe it is like that the whole country, generally. The great majority of schools here are Kukkiwon/WTF affiliate.
Still I know there are some people in Brazil who are really trying to change this, and some have even created orgs like "Brazillian Traditional TKD Association" and that kind of stuff, where they try to offer a more balanced curriculum.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

We teach heaps more than just kicking. In fact, we would regularly do a whole class with no kicking at all.

 

[DennisBreene]

Well..... anybody can tell me why we keep teaching mainly kicks inside our dojangs if we are not ok about this? I mean in this forum everybody have been telling about TKD is a balanced martial art, that is more then just kicking and more than just olimpic or WTF style sparring, etc,etc,etc.... so why we are not changin the way we teach and try to retake TKD as it is.. a martial art from korea?

So many tkdoings are complaining about the credibility about TKD as a martial art but we are not doing a thing to get rid of the sport side in some degree to take the old way againg about TKD teaching and training.

Manny

I believe that it was the Korean leadership that instituted the changes, starting in the 70's and 80's. There are many here who are more educated as to the evolution of "old Korean Karate" to modern Tae Kwon Do, but I don't see it as my place to try to hijack Korea's TKD. Having said that, I still see many Korean stylists who are happy to teach a more traditional balanced art form. I suspect that the balanced traditional styles will continue along, more or less, parallel to "sport" TKD. I think that most individuals are capable of deciding, after a bit of exposure, which path they prefer.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I think that most individuals are capable of deciding, after a bit of exposure, which path they prefer.

FWIW I think your premise is faulty. If you look at individuals involved in some form of MA they will be split into 2 categories. 1. Those who train exclusively in a single style or gym, within a close knit association, and 2. Those who train mainly in one style or gym but actively seek out knowledge at "Foreign" places /styles /associations through camps seminars and even ancillary training. IMNSHO I would guesstimate 95+% fall into category #1. This is not a slam at this category since most of us have limited resources of time, energy and money. Since Most never have real exposure to more than a single group they have no capability concerning an informed decision.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Well..... anybody can tell me why we keep teaching mainly kicks inside our dojangs if we are not ok about this?
Manny

The answer is simple. If you want to be a realy good Soccer (Football for non North Americans) you aren't going to spend a lot of time playing Basketball (and vica Versa) . Sure you may dabble once in a while, but your time and energy needs to be spent developing soccer skills. Having started before thre was any such thing as Olympic sparring and because there were few TKD schools around we had to compete in open and Karate Style tournaments, so the sparring was always similar to kickboxing rules. Not developing the hands was never an issue. In 1975 an accomplished Judo / Ju Jitsu guy came to the school to develop his striking. When we saw what he could do if he got a hold of us before our strike could take him out we learned we needed an answer for that problem as well.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Paddle drills, wavemaster drills, kicking drills, etc, are not part of our regular class curriculum. We may do them a couple of times per month, but our typical class curriculum is: floor exercises, forms, one step sparring, then free sparring; all of which include hand techniques nearly equal in content to foot techniques. The grabs, locks, throws, etc. are predominantly practiced during one step and self defense training, although during black belt sparring we often allow those techniques to be used. As Denis Breene stated above, I am one of those who is happy and content promoting and teaching the "old Korean Karate." I don't admonish modern TKD, I don't hold ill will towards the push to change it, but I am proud of what I have learned, and wish to pass it on for future generations, as I see value in it.

I guess I don't really concern myself with what goes on in other schools/associations beyond having a barometer of the art in general. I would say, that as an instructor, Manny, if you don't like what's going on, adapt and change your class to a curriculum you are more satisfied with.

 

[dancingalone]

The answer is simple. If you want to be a realy good Soccer (Football for non North Americans) you aren't going to spend a lot of time playing Basketball (and vica Versa) . Sure you may dabble once in a while, but your time and energy needs to be spent developing soccer skills.

I'm just wondering who are these people that focus only on kicking skills, at least in the United States. The highly specialized people who have serious ambitions in Olympic rules competitions? Sure.

But the rest of us? As I said, that's just not been my experience and I have traveled extensively throughout the USA and Canada. We all pretty much do the same things: traditional basics including blocks and hand strikes in the air and using targets, one steps / sometimes three steps, sparring with punching included, scripted self-defense practice which should lead eventually to free form capability. Less popular is body/weapon conditioning and now pattern-sourced application study is also gaining popularity.

I just don't see TKD dojang teaching kicking only or even primarily. Now I have seen dojang offer kicks as a preferred entry or finishing solution when you review their SD case studies or their scripted one steps, but IMO that's not the same thing.

 

[Manny]

Paddle drills, wavemaster drills, kicking drills, etc, are not part of our regular class curriculum. We may do them a couple of times per month, but our typical class curriculum is: floor exercises, forms, one step sparring, then free sparring; all of which include hand techniques nearly equal in content to foot techniques. The grabs, locks, throws, etc. are predominantly practiced during one step and self defense training, although during black belt sparring we often allow those techniques to be used. As Denis Breene stated above, I am one of those who is happy and content promoting and teaching the "old Korean Karate." I don't admonish modern TKD, I don't hold ill will towards the push to change it, but I am proud of what I have learned, and wish to pass it on for future generations, as I see value in it.

I guess I don't really concern myself with what goes on in other schools/associations beyond having a barometer of the art in general. I would say, that as an instructor, Manny, if you don't like what's going on, adapt and change your class to a curriculum you are more satisfied with.

That is exactly what I am doing my friend, for example, last night only a couple came to dojang so I teach some rolls (judo/aiki style) afther a brief lecture about the break falls and rolls to my two students. I told my students that breakfalls and rolls as some sweeps,throws,locks, etc are a part of the TKD repertory that is barely seen on the dojangs, afther that we did poomsae and finish with a few self defese techs. We did no kicking in the class.

The couple end the class with a bunch of questions about waht we did and believe me my class is more "Korean Karate" style than olimpic/wtf style and I am happy cause I am trasmiting what I have lerned over the years not only in TKD but in other martial arts.

Over the years I've been doing some research to learn more about some aplications that can suit my TKD and this is OK, I am not a competitor, and certainly I am not against about competing but this is not my thing, I did competition TKD way back on the mid80's to 90's but that was all.

Manny

 

[ATC]

Manny, You have to learn to separate. What you teach is what you teach, and the sport is just that a sport that some kids practice for. It seems that you want to look at the sport as the Art of TKD when it is not. Stop looking at the sport as something that you need to be teaching. The sport is not the Art. Teach the art and those that want to compete can train for that separately. There is no WTF style of TKD. That is what needs to be stopped, people simply need to stop calling the org that sets the rules for Olympic competition a style or art. Confusing WTF with a style of art is the problem.

 

[sopraisso]

Manny, You have to learn to separate. What you teach is what you teach, and the sport is just that a sport that some kids practice for. It seems that you want to look at the sport as the Art of TKD when it is not. Stop looking at the sport as something that you need to be teaching. The sport is not the Art. Teach the art and those that want to compete can train for that separately. There is no WTF style of TKD. That is what needs to be stopped, people simply need to stop calling the org that sets the rules for Olympic competition a style or art. Confusing WTF with a style of art is the problem.

I believe this issue would be dealt more easily if we there were clearer signals showing the difference between "sport-oriented" and "martial art-oriented" schools. I'm not a competitor and I would never join a sport-oriented dojang, but I wouldn't know the difference when first joining one. In my place it is very common to see schools advertising "the traditional art of taekwondo" (not to speak about the "millenial" art of taekwondo) and when we get there, it's basically sport training. I'm sure, though, this is not the case in every place. What I mean anyway is... the very schools, sometimes, seem to be the first ones to confuse WTF-sparring with Kukkiwon Taekwondo.

 

[ATC]

... the very schools, sometimes, seem to be the first ones to confuse WTF-sparring with Kukkiwon Taekwondo.

Saddly this is true more than not. All one can say is that before joining any school you much watch for a while. I have seen many come in and watch classes quite a few times before they walk into our office to join or ask more questions. You need to watch and to ask questions before joining an school. You questions should be base around what you want out of your training. You should see what you want when you watch. That is all I can say.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Saddly this is true more than not. All one can say is that before joining any school you much watch for a while. I have seen many come in and watch classes quite a few times before they walk into our office to join or ask more questions. You need to watch and to ask questions before joining an school. You questions should be base around what you want out of your training. You should see what you want when you watch. That is all I can say.

It can be very difficult for a non martial artist to tell the difference between a sport and non sport school, and most wouldnt know there is sport or non sport. I really think the two should have different names as they are worlds apart, its like calling soccer and volleyball the same thing just because they both use a round ball.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

If the goal of the school is sport, then kicking techniques are fine. Even if they outweight the training in other areas. If the expressed goal of the school is traditional or self-defense then kicking techniques should be tapered down in favor of other techniques that would be more applicable to a broader range of situations. Kicking requires a certain amount of distance and space, certainly more than hand techniques, locks or throws. Indeed, these techniques could be performed inside a phone booth if taught properly. This isn't to say that leg techniques are useless, indeed knee spikes and sweeps are common place in SD.

Personally, I have never kicked anyone in an altercation. And that spans over 30 years. I have had someone attempt to kick me less than a half-dozen times. And it was never what you would call a 'martial arts' type of kick. Now to be clear, I'm not saying it can't happen. But real life isn't like the movies where everything is choreographed i.e. you have plenty of distance and space and the badguys are polite enough to wait their turn to attack. Nor is it a competition venue i.e. controlled environments and people using the same rule set. What I have used though many times was knee spikes and sweeps, they are effective and require very little space.

Again though, it depends upon the goal(s) of the school. Kicking is great for conditioning and cardio. It is great for certain venues of competition. Nothing wrong with it at all unless the expressed goal of the school contradicts the methodology used. If that is the case then that is an issue that needs to be addressed.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Well..... anybody can tell me why we keep teaching mainly kicks inside our dojangs if we are not ok about this? I mean in this forum everybody have been telling about TKD is a balanced martial art, that is more then just kicking and more than just olimpic or WTF style sparring, etc,etc,etc.... so why we are not changin the way we teach and try to retake TKD as it is.. a martial art from korea?

At the last dojang I trained, a lot of time was spent on pumsae. We had one pumsae only night and pumsae were generally a part of other classes. We had one self defense only night, but self defense was also touched on in other classes. And we had one all sparring night, though sparring was also touched on in other classes.

In drills, I would say that about 80% of what was done was kicking until black belt. The reason for this was that it is much harder to develop good kicks than it is to develop good punches.

So many tkdoings are complaining about the credibility about TKD as a martial art but we are not doing a thing to get rid of the sport side in some degree to take the old way againg about TKD teaching and training.

I don't see any need to get rid of the sport side. It is fun, has a lot of people who participate, and a nice healthy competition circuit.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Personally, I have never kicked anyone in an altercation. And that spans over 30 years. I have had someone attempt to kick me less than a half-dozen times.

I have used kicks in the few situations where I have had to defend myself since high school. Both times it was the same kick; knee level side kick. One was against a would be mugger with a knife. Both times it was simply the opening that presented itself and both times, the attackers ended up on the ground and I quickly extracated myself from the situation.

Kicks have their place in self defense, but I firmly believe that in self defense applications, kicking above waist level is highly unadvisable.

Regarding people kicking me, I have not had anybody attempt kicking me since elementary school (dojang and tournament excepted of course).

 

[sopraisso]

At the last dojang I trained, a lot of time was spent on pumsae. We had one pumsae only night and pumsae were generally a part of other classes. We had one self defense only night, but self defense was also touched on in other classes. And we had one all sparring night, though sparring was also touched on in other classes.

In drills, I would say that about 80% of what was done was kicking until black belt. The reason for this was that it is much harder to develop good kicks than it is to develop good punches.

I don't see any need to get rid of the sport side. It is fun, has a lot of people who participate, and a nice healthy competition circuit.

If you're talking about "olympic sparring-oriented" or acrobactic kicks, I agree with you. But in my opinion kicks for self-defense are not that harder, as typical self-defense options are simpler kinds of kicks (it wouldn't be very advisable to kick high or use fancy stuff in a life-risk situation). Let's look at Kukkiwon pumsae kicks, for example: most of them are very simple kinds of kicks (lots of ap chagi and yop chagi mostly, with a suspicious dolyo chagi appearance), and kicking high like they do today has more to do with aesthetics and the identity of the art than with effectiveness. Some applications won't even work if you kick above the belt (example IMO: side kick followed by elbow strike in taegeuk oh jang).

So in a class aimed toward practical use of taekwondo as a self-defense fighting system, I believe it is ok we put more time on hand/arm techniques, as they're more likely to be used in self-defense scenarios. By the way, many hand/arm techniques when practically applied on a resisting opponent are not that easy -- they do need a lot of practice -- with partners if possbile, in my opinion.

No matter how much one is used to kicking high: kicking low is always safer, and in a self-defense situation the variables are unpredictable, and they usually add more difficulty to perform any technique (irregular terrain with obstructions, inadequate clothes, inadequate distance), what makes high kicks a dangerous choice (I don't mean it is impossible to use, of course, I only say it is dangerous). Not to mention the restrictions of distance to perform a high kick. Further, a high kick takes longer to launch than a low kick (the foot travels a longer distance after all), and yes, it makes it more predictable and easy to dodge/defend against. Oh, and it is easier to have the leg grabbed.

Once again, I'm not saying high kicks don't work, I just don't think it is a conservative choice, and when it comes to defend yourself I believe taking higher risks is not advisable.

What is maybe a good idea is to have separate classes (when it is possible in the school) to those interested in sport and those interested the other aspects of the art. The students could go to both if they enjoyed both. Or the school could just choose its main focus and say it out loud. There is a marketing choice here, of course, and... that is the hidden subject of the conversation: marketing. So I know that many instructors in my city wouldn't dare change their teaching focus so they don't risk losing a few students (although I really believe there's market share for every kind of classes, but I don't make a living on teaching taekwondo, so I could be wrong, right? ).

 

[Manny]

For me sport tkd has helped to gaing more students indide dojangs and the widspread of TKD all over the world, this is the good side, but also has watered down the traditional way of doing or teaching tkd aka martial art/self defense, this is the bad side of the story.

My master tend to focus more on kicking drills and sport tkd (WTF Style) and some poomsae, I tend to focus on the martial side of TKD and this is for me: a) Basics, b)Poomsae c)Aplications (one step and three step sparring)/ Self defense (Ho shi Sul) d)Vocabulary and hystory of TKD, etc.

Basically of my 8 students, 6 take lessons with my master and with me so they are getting th kicking drills and the clasic TKD ther other two students are a marron belt who is an exjidokwaner likemyself that likeas a lot the old the other is a blue belt that I forge myself.

I teach kicking drills too but not making a huge emphasis on it, my kicking drills are simple and straight you know... the kicks that we use in a self defense scenario like peet chagui, ap chagui, ti chagui and in some cases dolyo chagui and ax kicks but.... forget about tornado kicks or high jumping hook kicks ala Van Dame.

Manny