Question?

[Cthulhu]

I agree with most of what you have to say, Jim. The main thing I'm concerned about with a child earning (not his parents buying) a BB is level of maturity. Your typical 13-year-old will invariably not be as mature as your typical 18-year-old. Of course, it could be argued that a 13-year-old BB is not your typical 13-year-old.

In the Okinawa-te system, not only are black belts allowed to teach, but also allowed to award rank; there are no dan rankings in Okinawa-te. Very few people would take a 13-year-old martial arts instructor or assistant instructor seriously.

This is why I like the idea of a junior black belt. To me, it indicates that the child in question has put in the time and dedication to learn all the requirements and that he/she should be accorded a level of respect. It could also help instill in the student that the BB is not the end of training, merely another step along the way. The junior BB could very easily be an assistant instructor for children's classes, since this would give him/her teaching experience as well as giving the children a peer as a role model.

When the instructor feels the junior BB has reached an acceptable level of maturity, or they turn 18, whichever comes first, they may test for black belt, or just be awarded it if they have continued to be active after earning the junior BB. If the system the person is studying requires a testing fee for a black belt, it should be waived for someone who has earned their junior BB. I don't know how sticky as issue that is since Okinawa-te doesn't require a testing fee for BB.

My turn to shut up

Cthulhu

 

[IFAJKD]

I've seen little to disagree with you on...I agree that a child is not mature enough to teach adults. I believe that they should stay involved as an assistant to help other children....They cannot have the depth of understanding needed to be at the level an adult bb must be. yet as a child they have excelled and can teach these things to a point to other kids. In teaching they will continue to get better. If a bb is what it used to be most adults that have them...shouldn't...


J

 

[Cthulhu]

I agree. I see far too many BB's who have very poor form. They're great people, and they know the motions, but the execution of the technique just comes off as very sloppy.

Imagine, though...a kid gets his junior BB at 13, but continues training and assisting with the teaching of other children. I've always believed that teaching helps you understand the material even better. When that kid grows up and is ready to recieve a 'normal' black belt, imagine how potentially awesome that person would be.

Cthulhu

 

[IFAJKD]

As I said eariler...I really think they have to be seen as our future. I don't teach kids (except my son) I leave that to others. But yeah... I wish I were that BB kid at age 13 or 9. I had to sneak around to get lessons. Hard to get a BB that way.
I did get good at sneaking around...Early JKD training... Find out what their game is and find ways to cheat...JKD fight

 

[Cthulhu]

I think JKD isn't really good for most children. Before anyone jumps on my back, lemme explain why.

I've said it here a dozen times already...I believe for a person to truly appreciate the concepts and philosophies behind JKD, they need to have appreciable experience in a 'classical' system. So, JKD is a bad choice for Little Timmy's first MA class. However, if we're talking about one of my theoretical junior black belts, they just may be able to 'get it'. However, some of the concepts Lee took straight out of Taoism may be a bit much for them until they get a bit older.

Cthulhu

 

[IFAJKD]

I agree that JKD isn't great for kids. Unless you have altered the program and teach a watered down version. This, and an appropriate Instructor.
I'm not too sure about needing to have traditional arts background. I believe that you need to have maturity first and foremost. Dan Inosanto has stated that of all those he has taught, he most enjoys teaching people with no background, then from there it would be a kung fu background, and from there lastly a karate background. Not to knock any of it but simply because of circular vs linear orientation in training.
I have taught some extraordinary TKD people who will always look like a TKD person trying to be JKD (if you can picture that). have taught my son and he has done very well with it. For many kids are the $$$saviors of a school. Because I don't teach kids I end up having to be very creative in advertising
I have taught people with Brain injuries and their abilty to intergrate new learning is quite different. A challenge actually completely opposite of kids.

 

[Cthulhu]

Well, I'm not saying that an untrained person can't make a good JKD practitioner...not at all! What I believe is that an untrained person can't fully appreciate some of the underlying philosophies of JKD...particularly the ones about breaking away from tradition, form, etc., since they don't have that background to draw from. You can't be liberated from 'the classical mess' if you were never bound by 'the classical mess'.

I find it ironic that Inosanto has karateka last on his list, considering his kenpo background Then again, there are some very distinct stylistic differences between kenpo and traditional Japanese/Okinawan karate.

As far as the TKD people and others who 'look like a TKD person trying to be JKD', it all comes down to the individual, I guess. Martial arts training in general involves 'programming' the muscles, nerves, reflexes, etc. After so many years in a traditional system, I can see how some may find it hard to 'reprogram' themselves. I'm sure some just find it easier to do than others. I don't think many people see too much kenpo in what Inosanto does nowadays I'm sure that if I were ever fortunate enough to train in JKD, for some time, I'd look like an Okinawa-te person trying to do JKD. I don't think I'd be that way for long, but it is reasonable to expect that stage in my progression.

Guh. Babbling again!

Cthulhu
and I believe this is my black belt post!

 

[Icepick]

To me, it's funny how the perception of a black belt as the instructor is passed on to every art. In January, I decided to really focus on training BJJ, having had a taste of it a few years earlier. Coming up in a school that taught Modern Arnis and Kenpo, I was certainly conditioned to expect a black belt instructor.

When shopping around, I found a purple belt teaching not too far away. (Mr. Kyle) I thought, "How good is a purple belt?", and went to check it out. Well, I didn't grapple with Kyle that first day, but his white belts smoked me like a Cuban cigar.

:uhoh:

I've since learned that the BJJ rank standards are very high. A blue belt generally has 2-5 yrs. of experience. Kyle was purple at 6 yrs, when I started, and has since been promoted to brown.

I then think how many martial artists would scoff at training with a brown belt, even though their training time would exceed many black belts in other arts. It's a very tough standard to apply within any one art, let alone across styles.

 

[bscastro]

I am enjoying this thread and I think several people have made many good points. I want to throw a couple thoughts into th mix (some may be repeats as I skimmed a couple of the posts):
1. I think the age is not necessarily the issue, but the maturity and ability level and that usually kids do not have those to earn what we consider black belt level.
2. I realized in my own training that when I started out in Tae Kwon Do a few years ago, I was going for the black belt. The day I received it and was driving home from the test, a light went off in my head. Since then my goal was to become a better martial artist and not seek the belt. Instead, I see the belt as a natural consequence of training and dedication, so I accept these, but we each know in our heart and minds whether or not we have truly "earned" it or not whether or not someone gives it to us.
3. Several have mentioned black belt as a beginning, I agree with this. I see it as sort of like graduating from high school. You have some basic skills but to reach higher learning you must seek further knowledge and development.
4. A black belt who has not trained in their art or practiced in a long time I think really "isn't" a black belt anymore. As Oliver Cromwell (I think) said, "He who stops being better stops being good." It is a quote I keep close to heart on days I don't feel like training.

Cheers,
Bryan

 

[Cthulhu]

Excellent quote, Bryan! Thanks for sharing!

I agree with that sentiment completely. Look at Bruce Lee. He eventually reached a point where none of his students could touch him. The few challengers he humored near the end of his life couldn't touch him. However, despite his hectic schedule as an actor and celebrity, he still found ways to continue his training, in order to better himself.

For us mere mortals D), no matter how good our egos allow us to believe we are, there is always something better. This could be seen as a somewhat 'gunslinger' attitude toward training, so I'll use another phrasing. We can always be better than we were the day before. We can continue to improve simply by kicking higher than we did the day before. Punching faster. Blocking better. In a real fight, you have a real opponent out to knock yer block off. In training, your only real opponent is yourself. So, if you can kick the a$$ of the person you were yesterday, you're on the right track

Cthulhu

 

[IFAJKD]

Cthulhu... I really like that last part...It's true of everyone...we are our worst enemies. Bruce would say that "MA is honestly expressing one's self". I would add to that it's also ultimately working towards conquering one's self as well. We start with our egos. I have that going for us, belts are nothing. In the end we go after our fears. If we get them and still have our egos in tact we can then show REAL compassion and become better people.
Ok too much. but you get the gist of it ...Right? :soapbox:

 

[Cthulhu]

Yep, I get the gist. Bruce also talked about reaching a stage where, if he were to be confronted in a fight, he wouldn't attack, but 'it' would. I see that 'it' as being the id. Once the ego is 'put in its place', and we have properly replaced our improper, inefficient reflexes with combat effective reflexes, then we can simply allow the id, the subconcious if you will, work for us. Thus, when faced with some attack, you don't have to think about a counter, you don't have to worry about how effective the counter will be, you don't worry about looking bad in front of any bystanders. 'It' just happens.

I've found that a lot of martial artists who've had to used their skills in a real fight often have trouble recalling exactly what they did. Their bodies, having had years of conditioning and neuro-muscular programming, simply responded for them.

Cthulhu

 

[IFAJKD]

Bruce used to spar just boxing with one hand against Dan and James and one day he was doing this with James Lee who was the Hong Kong " golden gloves" equlivient champion. James couldn't touch him ever. this one day Bruce got hit by the lace of James's glove and Bruce's other hand came up. according n he hit James so hard so often Dan couldn't even see it. quickly James was on the ground with a broken jaw. Bruce walked away looked at Dan and said I know you don't agree with what happened but I can't help it...it just happens"

As related to me by Dan Inosanto through Paul Vunak

 

[Cthulhu]

I read that story somewhere, but I swear it was Dan Lee and not James Lee. Maybe the names got mixed up somewhere? I'd have to lean toward Dan Lee, because James was no mere student, or instructor, but a very close family friend. The two Lee families practically lived as one integrated family for quite some time. Also, where ever I read that story also had a quote from Dan Lee regarding the incident.

Cthulhu

 

[IFAJKD]

You're right. I tend to mix the two up. I have never read that story anywhere however. It does tell some about how Bruce would respond. There are many others with Joe Lewis and other unknowns

 

[Ms J]

many many years ago, one of my teachers at the gun range Handed me a paper after 60 hours of training, i was 15 at the time. When he certified me what he said has stayed with me since then, each time i have gained a piece of paper that says i have completed something i remember what this man said to me.

" J you have worked hard, practiced, and studied. I am giving you this piece of paper that says your done learning under me, its now time for you to go and really learn what you have been training in.

This piece of paper is Just your " License to learn”; until you apply, what you have learned and teach others you will not have learned other then the education side of your trade.

So now each time i rank its part of the deal, it is just my license to learn. As far as belting and ranking adults, in FMA. I dont do it unless their intending to teach and need the legality of the paper for societal acceptance to do so... its the only reason i even bothered to design a ranking-belting-teaching certification format for my classes....

I dont charge for testing and i dont charge for the rank papers. But if your going to come to me and want to belt and rank at any level even starting at level one, as an adult its only going to happen if your intending to teach.

so part of the requirements for any of my students that want to belt and rank, is a set number of hours for each level trained in that they have to teach as one of there requirements before they can be tested and then promoted to a new level.

Different system for children. Their rankings are based on other things...... as far as teaching a martial art, i teach FMA and i dont normally teach children FMA under the age of 12.

when i do allow children from the age of 12 or so into the class, there are acceptations, most of the time i require them to come into the class with a partner, normally one of there parents or older siblings.

FMA is weapons based art, and i learned great care for weapons at a young age, but i also so saw much abuse of them with younger children that did not have the proper guidance at home... where parrents would send there kids to a class and have no clue as to what they were learning.

I do not teach children’s classes. if I have them in my class, it is with everyone at that level regardless of their age. I do not break them up into age groups, because I personally feel that its better for all my students to be able to work with all ages and levels.

Note: these are my preferences when I teach my classes; each has their own path to be sure………

Even my own children, i have two boys one 22 and 15. The 15 year old was sent to take traditional kung fu first for a year or so before i would even start teaching him FMA because he wanted to play with the weapons to much.

My 22 year old was a total pacifist and did not come to me to learn until he was 19 and wanted to travel and hitchhike across the united states. In addition, most of what I taught my older son was realty based things from JKD-FMA and then out and out Self-defense and awareness stuff that would be suited for his life style planed.


Ms. J bows deeply
:asian:

 

[IFAJKD]

Ms J who's the photo? and would you tell us some more about yourself and your experience. I have enjoyed your post's and would consider it of much value to know more about you and your training.

 

[Ms J]

hahah thats my most recent photo, i know tis sort of scary, but its better then the one of me stabbing my busness partner:

there is a bio on line that goes over some of the experance... and then theres this web site that has much on it about our organzation..

www.f-a-t-e.org

thats the main org site.

here is my professonal bio page on the site,
http://www.f-a-t-e.org/Bios/management/Ms. J Bio.html

Please note: it was put there for the marketing of the org and programs for the communty.

there are a number of bios on this site
http://www.f-a-t-e.org/Bios/Fate Bios site map.html

as well as a masters bio page for our teachers and heros.
http://www.f-a-t-e.org/Bios/masters Bios/Masters.html

but....... i belive all this information is listed on my profile here with martialtalk......

Ms. J.....

 

[GouRonin]

Empowerment, spiritual growth, healing...

Man, doesn't anyone just enjoy laying a beating on somebody anymore?
:hammer:

 

[Despairbear]

Well GouRonin some of us do but what my girl and I do in the bedroom is none of your buisness.......(grin).....





Despair Bear