Question?

[GouRonin]

Should black belt and subsequent degrees of it be harder to obtain?

I see all these multiple ranked people and many of them are so young. I saw a TKD 8 year old kid who was a 3rd degree on TV.

Myself, I think black belt should not be given out until 18. Before that they should have a junior program or something. I know that kids are school's bread and butter but maybe they can have the same belts but with a stripe or something.

But on top of that it seems that everyone has a black belt these days and many people can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. Is it too easy now? Jeff was telling us what it was like in the old days.

I consider black the point when people become serious students but how can an 8 year old kid have 3rd degree? He's 8 fer cryin' out loud!

I think if you get your rank easy you will give it out easy. Far too many grandmasters for my liking.

:soapbox:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

See "McDojo".

I once asked a school owner if his Black Belts were fully qualified. He said yes. (Ages ran from 10-15, I was 18-19 at the time). I offered to spar with em, 10 on 1. He was afraid they would get hurt. Now, I was a no belt...you mean a -REAL- black belt couldn't defend properly against a no belt?

I'm sorry, but if youre 8, or even 15, and a black belt, I think its not worth the fabric its made outta. I know 1 school where -EVERY- fn black belt is a "Sensei". I'm sorry, but I aint calling no 12 year old "Master". They haven't earned it. Bought it maybe, but not earned.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Icepick]

BJJ rules say: "No blue belt until !6"

I think that's fair. They have some different colors available for kids ranking, but it's definitely different.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Let the kids earn the camo blet, and the tiger strip belt... leave the BB and higher for the ones who really earned em.

 

[paulk]

I quite agree

I trained for 14 years to achieve shodan, not because I dont understand or am slow but because I wanted to fully understand what I was doing before I considerd myself worth the rank.

Every one please take the time to promote quality in the martial arts.

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/kempo-jujitsu/

 

[Cthulhu]

Personally, I don't think a person should be allowed to test for black belt until they're 18. Not only do the younger students most likely not the have physical development required, but there has to be a level of maturity for the rank. Also, I think it's important that the person earning the black belt be a legal adult, just in case they have to use their skills and somebody gets seriously hurt.

However, it should be taken on a case by case basis, for some people. I've met a few (very few) 16 year-olds who were more mature than 26 year-olds. If that 16 year-old had been with me for several (5+) years, and demonstrated maturity, I may let them test for black belt. Other than that, I think the 'junior black belt' is a good idea for children and young teens. When they turn 18, they can then test for a black belt.

The Okinawa-te ranking system is a bit different than other systems. There are no dan rankings for black belt. Everything after black belt is based on seniority and the number of additional forms learned (Okinawa-te kata are hideously long ). So, once a person reaches black belt in Okinawa-te, not only are they allowed to teach, but they are allowed to award rank (up to black belt). I know of one TKD school where the teacher is a 2nd degree black belt, but the tests are conducted by his instructor, a 5th degree black belt.

Like my instructor, I don't expect people to call me 'sensei' or 'sir'. If they can pronounce it D), they can call me by my first name. I like it casual, but still respectful...not just to me, but amongst the students as well.

Grrr. Babbling yet again.

Cthulhu

 

[GouRonin]

Mister or Ma'am is ok. Mrs. or Miss, Sir is ok. Really, it costs nothing to be polite.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Cthulhu
Personally, I don't think a person should be allowed to test for black belt until they're 18.

I largely agree, though I might consider 16 for black belt. I find these very young black belts embarrassing. To begin with, they have no power in their techniques.

The Okinawa-te ranking system you describe sounds interesting. I am reminded of the fact that in many traditional Japanese systems there are no ranks, only a succession of teaching licenses. Do you have a link for this system?

Like my instructor, I don't expect people to call me 'sensei' or 'sir'. If they can pronounce it D), they can call me by my first name. I like it casual, but still respectful...not just to me, but amongst the students as well.

I prefer a bit more formality much of the time though when I teach Modern Arnis I follow the same first-name route, in deference to the Professor's desire for a relaxed, informal, fun experience for the students.

 

[Cthulhu]

The original ranking system was simply white belts for students and black belts for instructors. Belt colors were added, those being from low to high: white, yellow, purple, blue, green, brown, black.

At one time, there were dan rankings, but Shihan Doversola got rid of those (I can't remember when). I know this caused at least one person to leave, since he was anticipating another dan ranking. He eventually founded his own system called Wa-te ryu, which is almost exactly the same as Okinawa-te, except the kata names are translated into Japanese. And they have dan rankings

Personally, I've been tinkering with the idea of going back to an intermediate system, back when the rankings in many systems was simply white, green, brown, black. However, this may cause problems with the North American attitude of instant gratification. I'll have to research this more.

As for the ranking system for traditional Japanese bujujutsu ryu-ha...

It is true that the Japanese systems traditionally do not use belt (kyu/dan) rankings. Instead, they rely on licenses or certificates. I think the first license of any real significance is the okuden (though I think there are a couple of levels below this), which basically says you've learned all the basic techniques. I'd say it parallels a shodan. Then there is the menkyo or menkyo-kaiden, which signifies mastery of the system. Back in the 'good old days', a person usually only received one menkyo in his lifetime, which is in stark contrast to the multitude of multi-system black belts we have today.

Gah. I'm pulling this out of the deepest recesses of my befuddled mind, so there's a slight chance I may have gotten a fact or two screwed up.

Any other questions?

Cthulhu

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Cthulhu
Any other questions?

No, thanks. This was interesting, and I found some related web sites on Okinawa-te. Having all those old Black Belt etc. articles available online is handy.

 

[Cthulhu]

I completely forgot about those articles! I think there are some old Black Belt and Inside Karate articles on Okinawa-te floating around on the Web. There are Web sites for a few schools, but I don't think any of them have been updated for about a year or so.

My instructor just registered a domain name and is beginning to work up content for an Okinawa-te site that will hopefully have more information than what is currently available on the Web. Also, it should be kept more up to date as well.

Thanks for reminding me about those articles. It's been awhile

Cthulhu

 

[Rob_Broad]

I think too many have bastardized the black belt. Lets give one for grades, lets give one for attendance. Never forget the Black Belt for prepaid memberships.

It took me 6 and a half yrs to get my 1st degree Black Belt and many weeks I was there Monday - Saturday for structured classes, and I had a key and practiced on sundays as well. I started working with the kids classes after my third class because I was an assistant gymnastics coach. I usually had 30 - 40 hours a week in the school, always on the floor.

As for making the degrees of Black belt harder I believe it is our responsiblity to make it harder on ourselves, not have it as set in stone requirement. If a Black Belt in Kenpo spent the time between first and second degree going over every technique and thoroughly explored them by prefixing, suffixing,inserting, modifying, altering, adding,deleting,rearranging,blending, and condensing. They will now have a wealth of knowledge. Now taking the time to do this again with the techniques and their extensions. And things will get progressively harder.

Then there is always doing the techniques forward and backwards on video so that you can find the holes in your technique, and your flaws in motion.

We do not need anyone to make it harder for us, we should be making it harder on ourselves.

If there was to be anything added to make it harder I would have to say a personal form. Utilizing a full breakdown of every technique and transition. Along with a breakdown of the hows and whys.

 

[Despairbear]

Interesting point Rob. I think one possible problem with some black belts is that their goal is the rank, not the knowlage and ablity that are required to get it. Many people have the idea that when you reach you black belt you are "done" the game is over and you know every thing. One of the things I like about Aikido is that when you reach the rank of black belt (Shodan) you are consitered a "serious student" and your training truely begins, black belt is also the teaching rank. A sensei is not a master but just a student like every one else.



Despair Bear

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Despairbear
One of the things I like about Aikido is that when you reach the rank of black belt (Shodan) you are consitered a "serious student" and your training truely begins, black belt is also the teaching rank. A sensei is not a master but just a student like every one else.

I was told this very early on in my study of karate--a black belt is a "true beginner". I believe it. In many Japanese and Okinawan styles one isn't considered a teacher until 3rd or 4th dan and a shodan is at most an assistant instructor.

I truly believe that one studies the martial arts, and that one must remain a student of them. Even training with material one knows already there are always new variations, applications, efficiencies, and tricks to learn, and more understanding to gain of why things are done as they are.

The very term sensei is often translated as "one who has experienced things in life before you", emphasizing the learning aspect, not the teaching.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Good points. I think one must always seek more, and practice what they know. I mean, how many folks earned a blackbelt 20 yrs ago, stopped doing anything, yet still consider themselves "Good"? If you don't continue to 'learn', you start to 'unlearn'...The whole use it or lose it saying, I guess.

 

[Dronak]

As I'll be saying for a while at least until people start to recognize my name here, I'm new. I think DespairBear has a point. The potential problem with rankings is that people's work may be geared mainly towards gaining/earning the next rank rather than learning the material. I've heard that this is one reason the traditional Chinese martial arts don't use a belt ranking system. Everyone is a student all the time and there's always more to learn since you can't be perfect in everything. The thing is people often like to have a measure of their progress and a ranking system provides that. Instant gratification thing? It's nicer to have checkpoints than to just keep working and working? *shrug* I've also heard the idea that with rankings, once you get to something high like a black belt is supposed to be the point where you start to realize how little you actually do know. Just some comments from the little I know or have heard. I'm sure I'll learn more as I go along and by reading the board here (that's part of why I joined).

 

[Cthulhu]

I'm going to paraphrase Despairbear and say that a master is someone who will always be a student. Some people's idea of a master is somebody who has learned it all. Well, if you've learned it all, what's the point in going on? There are too many people who reach black belt and stop, thinking that's the end of the journey.

Story time!:boing1:

One day, a young man visited the dojo of a renowned karate teacher. After the class, the man inquired about classes. Eventually, he asked, "How long will it take for me to become a black belt?"

To which the teacher replied, "Five years."

The young man paused a moment and then asked, "How long would it take if I came to class every day of the week for an hour?"

To this, the teacher replied "7 years."

Growing a bit confused, the young man asked, "How long will it take if I came every day, for twice as long and twice as hard as everybody else?"

The teacher replied, "10 years."

In dismay, the man asked, "How come when I tell you I'll train longer and harder, you tell me it will take longer and longer to become a black belt?"

"Because," said the teacher, "with one eye fixed upon your goal, you can have only one eye to see the Way."

I'm sure most of you have heard this story before (with probably quite a bit more eloquence, I daresay!), but I think I got the point across.

So many people look at the black belt rank as a final goal to attain, when it is merely another rung up the ladder of knowledge.

Bah. I'm getting melodramatic. I'd better shut up now.:wavey:

Cthulhu

 

[Rob_Broad]

I like story time. can we hear Goldilocks next?

But seriously Cthulhu, you have some good points in what you have said in this topic. People need to take their time and enjoy the experience and not over focus ion the next stripe on their belt.

 

[jeffbeish]

Good thing to say. Don't worry about making taht next rank, worry about being good enough for it.

This comes from Confucius: The Master said: “Do not worry about lack of fame; worry about lack of ability.”

Once at a meeting of Judo big wigs I suggested we do away with belt ranks for sport Judo. You should have been there to hear the howls!
:soapbox:

 

[IFAJKD]

There certainly is a few ways to look at this. First providing the child earns the belt vs buying it....They have worked hard to get it and should not be discounted simply because those around him/her are much larger and overwhelming. The ability to win ANY fight is not a fair requirement. These kids are our future and the future of martial arts. we have to allow them the right to figure all this out for themselves when it becomes important enough for them to do so...I think about where I was at that age and I would grab anyone with a smidgon of knowledge to teach me what they knew.

Children learn quickly, have tremendous resiliance and need to be training vs the street. Personally, most of the time I don't give a #$%@ if an adult has a black belt. We will never as a whole move toward the "martial" side of the art while it's about $$$$. BB are status that tells most that you have worked to physically perfect forms and to some degree demonstrate relevent power and sparring ability. Again relevent. If we compare a child to an adult then their rank will never come. Again, assuming that they earned that belt, think about that kid as an adult if they continue to train....Now I think about that adult if they learn to make what they know combative. (mix arts, study combat, empty their cup and KEEP learning) Again, I mean no disrespect but most arts are antiquated and trying to sell fighting with muskets when many others have lazer guided uzi's....Belts are static and personally I think they should ONLY be given to children. Adults should work for more evolved goals as well as more functional ones

Ultimately the ability, attitude and future of the child is in the hands of an Instructor. In this respect we are only pointers of "a" way...not the way.

Alright, I will shut up:soapbox: