Should I speak up?

Fightback2

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I'm a 2nd degree purple still a few months from testing for my brown belt. As such I probably don't have a right to voice my opinions about the abilities of upper ranked belts. However, I do put in 5 - 10 hours a week, not including training, working for our school so my heart and soul are as wrapped up in the school as anyone's.

With that background, here's the deal. We have a man in our school who's a 1st degree brown belt (we have 3 degrees in our school), he's in his upper 60's and his techniques, katas and kumite are a mess. There's no way he can teach because he can't remember the katas. He's been the same rank for more than 2 years. The man has no control and has hit several people in the head (a big no no for us). However if anyone strikes him or blocks hard, and we do try to go easy on him due to his age, he has a hissy fit, claiming that he's an old man and can't take it, etc., etc.

Our Sensei is seriously thinking about letting him go for his black belt. That would mean jumping him up more than 2 degrees. There is no way that he could actually earn it and everyone knows it. He'll just have it handed to him. In my opinion he's going to be given this belt because Sensei feels sorry for him. I've heard many of the blackbelts express their disappointment and anger over this issue but only one will tell Sensei how they feel about it.

The man in question argues with the black belts and has said that he doesn't have to practice because he knows he's going to be given the belt anyway.

I have reached my breaking point. The way I see it if this man is promoted to black belt it's a slap in the face to every black belt, in fact every student, in the school who has actually earned their belt. It's going to set a lousy example to the lower ranked belts and the kids in the school. I can't imagine what it's going to look like to someone walking in off the street to view our school with thoughts of joining to see this man in a black belt screwing up a basic kata.

If he's actually awarded that belt there is no way I can go up and congratulate him.

Anyway, the question is, do I, as a lower ranked belt, keep my mouth shut or do I, as someone who feels the school is a second home, voice my opinions and concerns?

Thanks for the opportunity to rant. Any and all opinions are welcome.
 

jfarnsworth

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Ultimately it's up to the head instructor. Try being on the side of the testing board and get over ruled when you fail someone for a belt. This happened to me with my first instructor. Everyone on the board so NO! We were over ruled. There's not much you can do. Afterwards, shake his hand and give him a nod.

Unfortunately those things happen from time to time. It's a shame but it happens. :asian:
 

mj-hi-yah

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You are in a tough spot. You seem very passionate about your studies and you can see these things, and the fact that you are asking this here shows that you must have respect for your instructor, but if you are to reconcile your feelings over this person's promotion, you in some way may need to challenge his decision on this. It is difficult to make a determination about this person's abilities by just what you are telling us as we don't get to see him in action, but that being said not all belts are created equally, and you can obviously recognize that. I think it is ok for you to bring your concerns to your instructor, but I would do it in private, maybe in his office, and I would take an asking approach rather than a telling approach. First see if he will share with you his reasons for promoting this man, and that will hopefully open the door for discussion and for you to express your feelings concerning how a promotion of this man, at this time, would dilute the meaning of earning a black belt in your school for you and others. Then give him an opportunity to respond to that.

MJ :)
 

Adept

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Like the others have said, this will happen from time to time.

My advice - Don't focus on the colour of someones belt. A person is only ever as good as they are, regardless of their belt. Belts are, when you get right down to it, only good for holding your pants up.

Concentrate on your training, and how well your own skills are progressing. Don't focus on your own belt colour, let alone anyone elses. Just do the best you can, all the time.
 

dsp921

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Fightback2 said:
The man in question argues with the black belts and has said that he doesn't have to practice because he knows he's going to be given the belt anyway.
Sometimes due to age or other physical limitations you have to cut people some slack. However, based on your statement quoted here, I would think his attitude alone would prohibit him from being promoted. At least it should.

One thing to remember, the quality of the upper ranks at any school reflect on the instructor, the school, and the other students. If you aren’t happy with the skills of the Black Belts where you are, you should look for another school that satisfies your expectations.

I would leave talking to the instructor about who he wants to test to the senior students at the school.
 

shesulsa

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Truth is a funny thing. Sometimes it can be self-evident without verbal acknowledgement and its presence can be far more powerful than any words could ever express.

See, you don't know if this man has some kind of health problem that is undisclosed to you, or if this is a test of your character and compassion from the panel, or what. There are a lot of unknowns here.

My advice is to man your own boat. Follow the rules, and go along with whatever is decided. If there is an anonymous feedback opportunity within your school, take the opportunity in that form. Ask your head instructor if there is anything you can do to help this man progress his skill for his black belt test. Don't elaborate on your opinions, just say that you simply want to do whatever you can as a student to help others who are preparing for a test get ready. Treat the guy with general respect and compassion and detach yourself from his problem - don't make his problem yours.

Focus on your own training, because people like this will come and go. Some teachers will make accommodations for others that they may or may not need and that regardless of whether they do or do not need it will always seem wrong and unfair to other students. That's just the way it is.

Good luck.
 

TigerWoman

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I can understand how you feel. I too worked pretty hard, hours wise, days wise, and can't count the number of hrs. of service to the school and master. But I got tested with the old hard breaking requirements, with guys, and at my age, it was difficult. Then right after my test, the testing requirements were changed--all made easier for a family-actually related to the instructor-to be able to test for 2nd also. How would that make you feel? Didn't do any good to point out the easier breaks to the instructor. And the people testing still think the test is hard. I found people can find any test to be hard in their minds though, especially if they don't train for it. Something about rising to the level of expectation but not beyond. But they are my friends and comrades in training so I can't begrudge them their black belt as they have no control over their testing criteria. After all they are 40 somethings and I'm fifty something so why would I get a break.

But saying all that, I really don't think any person should be passed that doesn't demonstrate the requirements, physically, mentally, or technically.

Now, forms need to be done to the best of the ability of the age. Can't remember it, can't test. I had to do it over and over for months to get it into my brain. Repetition is key.

Each requirement can be lessened slightly for age, but hey if I did it, I figure anybody can, aside physical impairment. And I have a very bad knee.

I spoke up to my instructor and have gotten nothing but grief for it. I'm glad I did though. Nobody does speak up, they are afraid of not getting advanced. But at that point, I had nothing to lose. If you do, just remember, he is the head instructor, it is his school and the final outcome of the school is his and all decisions are his, whether right or not.

We had a 70 yr. old that came back after some twenty-five years away. He couldn't do anything except stretch. But there were times since he was the oldest and highest student, that he taught class. He couldn't teach, show, do anything except stretch so that is what we did all hour. His back gave out after about 8 months and he left for good per his doctors orders.

I can't even see myself going past 60 in TKD as I can't seem to find a non-hurtful routine with it. So the student you mention may not have much longevity either and your instructor is giving him a chance to finally get his belt. A "honorary" belt...but it doesn't sound like the student has a very good attitude if he isn't trying his best. Still it is your instructor's call and hard as it is, just accept it, congratulate the guy and concentrate on your own path. That is what I have to do. TW
 
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Fightback2

Fightback2

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Thanks - I understand where everyone's coming from.

Based on the man's age and years of coming to school I think he deserves a little slack but what gets me more than anything else is the man's attitude - why should I work hard when I know I'm going to get it anyway. That's what really gets under my skin.
 

Gemini

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Many people feel the same way you do about fellow students. I sure did at one point. I think the more passionate about your school you are, the harder it is to swallow when something like this happens. Let's try to look at it another way. You're worried about your schools reputation. Fair enough. Your sensei has decided that promoting this man is what he's going to do. It's HIS school and HIS reputaion, and he's good with it. You must respect his opinion, even if/when you don't agree with it. It's not something you can "sorta" do. Remember, he has ALOT more experience than you, and he may do things that make no sense to you...yet. You either believe in him or you don't.

Judging someone's ability is subjective. At some point you may encounter someone who is so capable, he feels YOU are not deserving. Sound fair to you? Of course not. This path isn't one you want to go down. Trust in your sensei. As stated above by a few people, you need to focus on your own training. Let it go.

Regards,
 

Kamaria Annina

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That's definitely up to the head instructor, but if you want to talk to them about it, do so in private as not to create problems with the class. I definitely know where you are coming from, however if a person puts in their best effort, I think they should be allowed a black belt. Although, you've mentioned that they've been the same belt for 2 years? It's a hard call I think.
 

Sam

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maybe I got this backward... but arnt you married to the head instructor of your school? Or did I misunderstand?
 

shesulsa

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Fightback2 said:
Thanks - I understand where everyone's coming from.

Based on the man's age and years of coming to school I think he deserves a little slack but what gets me more than anything else is the man's attitude - why should I work hard when I know I'm going to get it anyway. That's what really gets under my skin.
Still, his attitude is not your problem unless you or another class member gets hurt. Maybe he has some kind of dementia or Alzheimer's and your teacher wants to get him to black belt so he can get rid of him. :idunno:

It's an uncomfortable situation to say the least. Now, if you start getting more and more students like this and more and more promotionals pushed at like this, then you might consider finding another school. But if it's confined to this case ... then you might want to just keep rowing your own boat.
 
R

rmcrobertson

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1. I pretty much agree: row your own boat.

2. However--hit him back. if you're sparring or running techniques, and he's being a jerk, hit him back. Just make sure you can sting him without hurting him; he doesn't like it, he doesn't have to work out and he doesn't have to smack folks in the head. That IS your business; you are not this man's punching bag.

3. There's always the possibility that this issue says as much about your training as it does about his. But where's HIS control? he's the upper belt.

4. The real problem's his loud claim--assuming that you've actually heard him do it--that he's got it made and doesn't need to train. Where I'm from, it would be...unwise...to tell the black belts that.

5. The head instructor may have all sorts of motives, some good, some bad.

6. Most of this stuff isn't your business, though it is pretty annoying. I say hit him back; it has a way of sorting these little problems out, especially with bullies like this.
 

Dronak

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Fightback2 said:
The man in question argues with the black belts and has said that he doesn't have to practice because he knows he's going to be given the belt anyway.

That doesn't seem right to me. He won't practice or try hard because he knows it's a given that he'll get the belt? Something does seem wrong about the situation.

I'm sure that others have more experience with this and can give better advice. The closest I've been to something like this is when we started taking lessons with our college club, after we learned the first two basic forms there was a little test to see if we knew them well enough start learning a higher level form. We had to perform those two forms for our teacher, one of his seniors, and a friend of his who was a TKD champion; they were the judges. I saw a couple people who couldn't remember the forms and had to try more than once in order to get all the way through them. I thought some people weren't doing the moves very well either. From what I saw, I figured most people would pass, but a couple wouldn't. In the end, everyone passed though. I didn't really agree with it, but it wasn't my decision to make.

As for your situation, you could talk to your instructor about it. It might be best to stick to facts as much as you can so that it doesn't seem like you're judging his ability. You could mention things like he forgets the forms and sometimes hits you in the head. That quote above could be mentioned. It sounds like others could back you up so it's not your word against his on that point. I don't think it's necessarily wrong to ask and try to find out what's happening. Maybe if you can kind of question the instructor about the decision rather than object to it, you can find out why he's doing things this way. Like others mentioned, there could be something else you don't know right now.

Is there any chance that this will be a kind of honorary degree though? You know, like they do with PhDs in some colleges and universities. Maybe if it was, it wouldn't be so bad? OK, he still might not deserve the honor, I don't know, but at least it would be recognized that he didn't actually earn it.

Well, good luck with whatever you decide to do. I hope this was of some help.
 

terryl965

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First off remember you are not there for him and he is not there for you, your training is your way of life in some cases people are unable to do certain aspect of there common goal for that we as instructors have the right to forgo some of a test to help the student get the most out of there journey. I would not expect a student with only one leg to do certain things in my class so we alter some techniques to fit his position in the school now once he meet his criteria for his BB why would I fail him for his lack of can't do certain things. Myself Teach TKD can I do everything I could 35 years ago no but do I still teach yes, Maybe the man in question has a understanding of waht he and the instructor want out of him, and what he wants for your art as well. Please be humble on your journey with other limatation one day it might be you.
 

Eldritch Knight

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I'd like to chime in that the quality of Dan-ranking individuals (black belt) are generally considered by the populace to be indicative of the quality of the art, and as such, I would expect them to be able to represent it well. If someone were to walk into your school interested in practicing martial arts, and sees a black belt teaching the class who can't even remember the forms, that reflects very, very badly. For any other belt level, I would say just live and let live, but if he's given a black belt, then he'll been given a responsibility that he probably can't live up to.
 

Loki

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I agree with what I'm reading. But as Robert said, don't be his punching bag. If he's "old an deserves a break", he can step off the mat. My grandmaster is 70 and can still fight very well (though it's not the best comparison, him being a 10th dan and all). Another guy (in his early 40's) I saw getting tested for 1st dan had some medical problems that he was given a break for, but he still gave his all during his test. His fights at the end of it were against an 18 year old who's in killer fighting shape, and he did it anyway. He can set the pace of the fight if he likes, but not push you around.

This guy is also being debated right now, whether he should be granted black or not, but again, that's the instructors' call. But you're past that.

His attitude is abnoxious, but a lot of peoples' attitudes are. I train with a guy who's an orange belt and pisses the hell outta me. You're simply facing the unforunate coincidence of a combination of both an a-hole and a person who really deserves special consideration. Do agree with me that you wouldn't mind all that much if he did his best.

I heard Adept saying how rank color shouldn't matter. He's right, it shouldn't, but to some of us it does, myself included. I'm somewhere in between student and instructor. Rank, especially black belt, is a mark of achievement. When someone gets it without working really hard for it, like you did so far and will in the future, IT IS a slap to the face. It's like cutting in line (Kudos to Tulisan!!). Coming from someone who also sees the dojo as a second home, I hope I can at least console you with my sympathy.

~ Loki
 

arnisador

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dsp921 said:
Sometimes due to age or other physical limitations you have to cut people some slack.
Could there be more to the story? Might he have an illness of which the instructor is aware, but students are not?

It's gotta be the instructor's call.
 

dsp921

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My problem with promoting him isn't so much due to his physical abilities, but due to his attitude. The whole thing about not practicing and learning because he is going to get the belt anyway is just wrong. I could see allowing some slack for age and physical issues, but they better be making up for it on the effort and attitude end, and based on the original post, I don't see that.
That said, age and limitations aside, a Black Belt has to represent their art, their school and their fellow students and represent them well.
 
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LT2002

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dsp921 said:
My problem with promoting him isn't so much due to his physical abilities, but due to his attitude. The whole thing about not practicing and learning because he is going to get the belt anyway is just wrong. I could see allowing some slack for age and physical issues, but they better be making up for it on the effort and attitude end, and based on the original post, I don't see that.
That said, age and limitations aside, a Black Belt has to represent their art, their school and their fellow students and represent them well.
Sure go ahead and say something ;)

Befoer you do, ask yourself what will YOU look like afterward?

I used to work out in a style where even the plethra of masters who flocked our group were terrible...nevertheless, masters they were (and probably still are).

Make certain you are looking at your own improvements and not comparing those to the journey of another. If he has been around longer than yourself, there is not much of a way you can dispute where he started.

Keep in mind the impression many people hold of BB adn masters is one of a 'humble' person. If you go tattling on your classmates....will you then make an outstanding bb yourself?

cheers
 

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