Myths of the Martial Arts: A Black Belt Is a Master

[Jenna]

Thank you for you're comment, Jenna.

I did not want to get off topic, by switching from young "master" to old master, but felt it interesting to bring up.
In the case of the young "master" who may derive their status from superb technique with little depth and understanding, to the old master, who, has lost the crispness of the technique but possesses the depth and understanding of underlying principals of their art. Who would appear to be the true master in the eyes of the paying public.


Anyone care to throw a thought out................

Forgive me for not understanding that you were looking at it from the pov of the paying public. Yes I think that is a quite different set of lenses to view it through. I would say in the dichotomous example of "master" you have given that the paying public appreciate their stereotypes. In that case I would argue that BOTH of these are stereotypes that would satisfy the public perception of "master". Speaking as a member of the public, I would say that I like to see good fights in the ring or mats or even on screen in fiction. At the same time I appreciate the TRUTH (for me) that depth of skill cannot come without depth of understanding. And depth of understanding can only come from length of practice. That is my opinion as I have experienced it with the practitioners I have trained and fought with.

Again though that may be specific to the art. In Aikido I think age-related mastery and efficiency gains are notable. In boxing, there is a definite split depending upon application. Older heads bearing deeper understanding will ALWAYS have the measure of younger heads with superficial understanding. However, that is tempered by understandably lacking endurance. In the ring that is everything. Ring environment suits younger "master" types. Elsewhere, endurance is not the thing and depth of understanding that generates significant efficiencies ALWAYS wins (in my experience). I am sorry for digressing. I think the public like stereotypes. A young, fit "master" that can take on all comers would appear to prove theirselves worthy of the title in the eyes of the public I think. A more erudite, neater, more efficient master would also fit that stereotype of what it is to be a master in the eyes of the public.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Perhaps you can scan it or take a picture and I can have a look. That would be the best way to get to the bottom of it.

I had heard that there is a new KKW cert as of last year or the year before, but prior to that, the poom certs were pink or peach and the dan certs were more of a parchment. The visual difference was immediately apparent.

 

[pgsmith]

Who would appear to be the true master in the eyes of the paying public.

Coming from a koryu perspective, we don't really care about the views of the paying public. Sort of a rude outlook but there just isn't enough interest, or flexibility, in the koryu arts to make teaching it a 'for profit' venture, so we pretty much tend to ignore the general public. Besides, I think the view of the general population would depend entirely upon how many old Kung Fu Theater movies they've seen.

 

[Black Belt Jedi]

A Black Belt doesn't mean you are a master. When reaching 1st dan, you are a Sempai (senior student) but not a master. I say you have to be a 4th 5th or 6th dan to be a master, 7th to 10th dan you are a grandmaster. Some schools automatically throw around titles here and there. Some schools automtically call a 1st dan a Sensei. I have been taught that you earn the title of Sensei when you own your own club, if your Sensei passed down ownership of his or her dojo to you or get to 3rd or 4th dan. I had people addressing me as Sensei, but I reply that I am not and I don't own a dojo. Even the title Sempai is given to a 1st dan if you train in the dojo longer and show up volunteering your time to the dojo teaching classes and doing a service to the community. That's what happened to me.

My belief that titles in the black belt should be thrown around so much. It's means more to have patience and earning a title through humility, hard work, and modesty.

 

[seasoned]

Coming from a koryu perspective, we don't really care about the views of the paying public. Sort of a rude outlook but there just isn't enough interest, or flexibility, in the koryu arts to make teaching it a 'for profit' venture, so we pretty much tend to ignore the general public. Besides, I think the view of the general population would depend entirely upon how many old Kung Fu Theater movies they've seen.

Just throwing things out there for conversation. Shodan masters aren't my cup of tea. I come from the 60s vintage and have held true to the way I was taught and trained.

 

[seasoned]

A Black Belt doesn't mean you are a master. When reaching 1st dan, you are a Sempai (senior student) but not a master. I say you have to be a 4th 5th or 6th dan to be a master, 7th to 10th dan you are a grandmaster. Some schools automatically throw around titles here and there. Some schools automtically call a 1st dan a Sensei. I have been taught that you earn the title of Sensei when you own your own club, if your Sensei passed down ownership of his or her dojo to you or get to 3rd or 4th dan. I had people addressing me as Sensei, but I reply that I am not and I don't own a dojo. Even the title Sempai is given to a 1st dan if you train in the dojo longer and show up volunteering your time to the dojo teaching classes and doing a service to the community. That's what happened to me.

My belief that titles in the black belt should be thrown around so much. It's means more to have patience and earning a title through humility, hard work, and modesty.

Now your talking............... This is a cup half full.

 

[puunui]

I had heard that there is a new KKW cert as of last year or the year before, but prior to that, the poom certs were pink or peach and the dan certs were more of a parchment. The visual difference was immediately apparent.

The old kukkiwon poom certificates were also a different color from the dan certificates. Each poom had its own color, while the 1st-4th Dan had its color, and the 5th and up dan had its own color.

 

[puunui]

Coming from a koryu perspective, we don't really care about the views of the paying public. Sort of a rude outlook but there just isn't enough interest, or flexibility, in the koryu arts to make teaching it a 'for profit' venture, so we pretty much tend to ignore the general public. Besides, I think the view of the general population would depend entirely upon how many old Kung Fu Theater movies they've seen.

Gee, I must be a koryu thinker then, because I don't care what the paying public thinks either.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Gee, I must be a koryu thinker then, because I don't care what the paying public thinks either.

Personally, I think that the whole idea of being concerned with what the paying public thinks depends more on whether or not you wish to run a for profit school than what art you are teaching. And even then, being concerned with what the paying public thinks really has more to do with how you run your business than what art you teach or in how you define a first dan/black belt.

 

[pgsmith]

I come from the 60s vintage and have held true to the way I was taught and trained.

As we all should! Hold true that is, not be a 60s vintage!

Gee, I must be a koryu thinker then, because I don't care what the paying public thinks either.

However, that is different than the vast majority of TKD practicioners that I've met.

Personally, I think that the whole idea of being concerned with what the paying public thinks depends more on whether or not you wish to run a for profit school than what art you are teaching.

I agree with that completely. That's why you rarely see koryu instructors worried about public image because there's just no way to do this stuff for profit. Those that run a koryu dojo just hope to not lose too much money at it.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

However, that is different than the vast majority of TKD practicioners that I've met.

Well, the practitioners usually are the paying public in the case of TKD. I assume that you mean TKD school owners.

I agree with that completely. That's why you rarely see koryu instructors worried about public image because there's just no way to do this stuff for profit. Those that run a koryu dojo just hope to not lose too much money at it.

The dojo where I train in Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu is mainly a judo/jujutsu school. Kind of the best of both worlds; they have an art that is commercially viable while offering the Koryu as well.

 

[puunui]

However, that is different than the vast majority of TKD practicioners that I've met.

I don't think I am like the vast majority of taekwondo practitioners. The kwan founders, for example, all had outside jobs for their primary source of income. I choose to follow their example, in part because it allows me to get more in touch with how they thought and felt about their art. I want to understand their thoughts and the thoughts of their first generation direct students, who I refer to as the pioneers. The pioneers also all had outside jobs as their primary source of income.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I don't think I am like the vast majority of taekwondo practitioners. The kwan founders, for example, all had outside jobs for their primary source of income. I choose to follow their example, in part because it allows me to get more in touch with how they thought and felt about their art. I want to understand their thoughts and the thoughts of their first generation direct students, who I refer to as the pioneers. The pioneers also all had outside jobs as their primary source of income.

Would teaching commercially have even been possible for the pioneers and kwan founders at that point in time?

 

[puunui]

Would teaching commercially have even been possible for the pioneers and kwan founders at that point in time?

Why not.

 

[dancingalone]

Would teaching commercially have even been possible for the pioneers and kwan founders at that point in time?

I don't see why not. It was a possibility in Japan where headmasters such as Ueshiba lived off the offerings of his students after a certain point. Ueshiba was notably noncommercial however. He never cared much about money and didn't accept it directly from his students (they gave their donations discretely to an altar or shomen? and Ueshiba Sensei would take as needed from it after making a prayer). I believe Ueshiba's teacher, Takeda Sokaku, charged by the technique to learn them though.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Why not.

I should rephrase; was it commercially viable to teach martial arts in Korea at that time? Was the customer base such that it was possible to teach martial arts as one's sole occupation? Maybe it was; I don't know so that is why I was asking.

 

[seasoned]

Just throwing things out there for conversation. Shodan masters aren't my cup of tea. I come from the 60s vintage and have held true to the way I was taught and trained.

As we all should! Hold true that is, not be a 60s vintage!

I have no choice, because I started training in the mid 60s.

Please elaborate on your interpretation of 60s vintage.

 

[dancingalone]

I should rephrase; was it commercially viable to teach martial arts in Korea at that time? Was the customer base such that it was possible to teach martial arts as one's sole occupation? Maybe it was; I don't know so that is why I was asking.

How did Dojunim Choi support himself after 1958 when he opened his own school? I'm assuming that he had quit farming by then?

This article might be of interest to you, Daniel. The author, GM KIM Pyung Soo, states that martial arts teachers had a difficult time keeping their dojang doors open due to finances though he doesn't explicitly state a time frame. I gather it was kwan era Korea however because he mentions GM PARK Chul Hee being a itinerant instructor, teaching all over Seoul where he could find the space.

http://kimsookarate.com/articles/dojang-bee.html

 

[pgsmith]

Please elaborate on your interpretation of 60s vintage.

Not everyone can be a 60's vintage. I'm a decade behind you. Just making a joke, didn't consider that you might be touchy about it. Apologies.

It was a possibility in Japan where headmasters such as Ueshiba lived off the offerings of his students after a certain point.

A large number of the Japanese koryu arts began this way also, with out of work samurai opening a dojo and teaching the arts to merchants for pay.

 

[seasoned]

Not everyone can be a 60's vintage. I'm a decade behind you. Just making a joke, didn't consider that you might be touchy about it. Apologies.

I was just trying to get a conversation going, and I didn't realize the humor content. Next time throw one of these at the end and it will explain everything. No hard feeling here.