Testing for black belt

[Gerry Seymour]

We’ll, you certainly won’t have the time with them if you cause them to quit. The longer I can keep a student, the more opportunity I have to have a positive impact on the student.

Since I own a commercial school, I obviously benefit financially from keeping the student. However, I can honestly say that that is secondary. The instructors that I choose to associate with are sincere in that regard, too. As a school teacher, as well that holds true. I didn’t become a teacher or MA instructor to get rich, but I do earn a living from teaching.


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I think something we sometimes forget is that a commercial school often has more students, which actually can make it a bit easier to be patient, and absorbs some issues better. If I have 3 students in a class, one who is hard to deal with makes the class a pain. When I was teaching classes with 20 kids in them, it was much easier to manage the difficult ones (including the fact that there were enough other students that nobody had to be stuck with them for the entire class).

 

[Flying Crane]

I think you can build on the basics they've learned at home. But you can't possibly teach them respect and discipline if they haven't already learned it at home. You don't have the time with them, for one thing.

And I am still trying to understand how this became the responsibility of the martial arts instructor.

It’s just weird.

 

[JR 137]

And I am still trying to understand how this became the responsibility of the martial arts instructor.

It’s just weird.

I’m a school teacher. They expect the same thing from me. Somehow I’m supposed to be the one who motivates them to study, gets them to do their homework, and keeps them under control and non-disruptive in class. The parents somehow have no obligations in this regard. A kid fails, it’s the teacher’s fault. Gets in trouble, obviously the teacher doesn’t know how to manage a classroom. The kid doesn’t do his work, the teacher didn’t make it fun enough.

It’s all a load of crap. Yes, I have responsibilities and ways of controlling some things. I actually had a parent tell me “you’re supposed to make sure he brings all his books home; that’s why it’s not getting done!” I smiled and replied “he’s in 8th grade. He knows he’s supposed to write his assignments in his agenda and open up and read it when he’s packing up to leave. I even remind them all to do this at dismissal every day. I’m not packing 40 kids’ bags at the end of the day.” Then I get “the books are too heavy to carry.”

It’s all my fault for not packing each bag and carrying it to the car. I guess I’m a horrible teacher.

Parents seem to forget to enforce the rules. I guess it’s too hard to listen to their kids complaining while they’re being punished. I had a parent tell me “I don’t know what to do anymore. He just won’t listen to me. All he does is play his Xbox instead of doing his homework.” I said “how about taking the Xbox away?” I guess that would be too harsh or too too torturous for her to deal with. Talking it out, yelling, and threats don’t work. Action works, as does consistency. I’m not talking about hitting; I’ve never hit my kids and nor will I; I’m talking about consequences such as taking away the video games for a week if they don’t get their work done; no sports if they’re getting in trouble in school; that sort of thing. Kids know exactly where the line is and what they can and can’t get away with. They can spot an empty threat a mile away. They know when you say a week, and it really means an hour. They’re far smarter than we give them credit for.

Rant over.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And I am still trying to understand how this became the responsibility of the martial arts instructor.

It’s just weird.

Parents don't get training, so they look to folks with experience with a lot of kids (coaches, teachers, etc.) for help. MA instructors who teach kids fall into that category for parents, anyway. Add to that the fact that MA has long been marketed as "character building" for kids, and it's not so unreasonable for parents to expect.

 

[Michele123]

And I am still trying to understand how this became the responsibility of the martial arts instructor.

It’s just weird.

As a parent who enrolled her daughter, partially in the hopes that it helps with self-discipline I can try to share my thoughts.

First, we absolutely work on disciple at home. However, sometimes kids just don’t think what mom & dad say is true or applies outside of the home. It is sooooo nice to have what we say reinforced at Taekwondo. It really makes a difference to have someone outside of mom & dad saying the same thing.

Second, and I don’t know if this makes a difference, but it is self-disciple that I’m hoping martial arts helps to instill in my children. Not regular discipline. I hope my children learn to commit to something, to work hard at home (instead of playing all the time), and see the fruits of their labor. I want them to learn to adapt to different social settings (military style at martial arts, family style at home, school at school). I think that martial arts classes can play a role in this.

Third, my oldest is likely on the autism spectrum. The psychiatrist we visited said she had lots of red flags but doesn’t like to diagnose this young because if we work hard on it she may be able to learn skills earlier enough to keep her away from being classified as on the spectrum. We will need to go back when my daughter is 7-8 for another evaluation and a final diagnosis. I hope that martial arts can help her develop some of those skills (that we again are also working on at home).

My daughter has been in Taekwondo for almost six months now. I’ve seen a *huge* improvement in her impulsivity. Again we were working on it at home too, but I think the MA atmosphere really has helped a lot too.


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[Flying Crane]

Parents don't get training, so they look to folks with experience with a lot of kids (coaches, teachers, etc.) for help. MA instructors who teach kids fall into that category for parents, anyway. Add to that the fact that MA has long been marketed as "character building" for kids, and it's not so unreasonable for parents to expect.

Yeah, it’s nonsense marketing. I doubt that more than a small fraction of instructors would even know how to approach it, or have had any kind of appropriate training.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah, it’s nonsense marketing. I doubt that more than a small fraction of instructors would even know how to approach it, or have had any kind of appropriate training.

I don't think it's nonsense. The way many (most, at least in my experience) MA schools are run with kids tends to focus on getting them doing things in an organized manner, staying on a task for a while, taking instruction and acting with the class rather than independently, etc. All of that is good practice for developing the habit of discipline and focus. There's good research in the last couple of decades (probably some before that) that indicates these things are habit-based skills that we can develop. Impulse control is a large part of it. As a child resists the impulse to get off-task, they are actually getting better at focus.

As I said before, many of the same benefits can be found from organized sports practice, too.

 

[JR 137]

Yeah, it’s nonsense marketing. I doubt that more than a small fraction of instructors would even know how to approach it, or have had any kind of appropriate training.

My former teacher did a great job with the kids in this regard. I went to his dojo about a month or two ago for a seminar and to catch up with him and a few others. It’s been over 15 years since I’ve seen him. This sums it all up... once I walked in and even before I put my stuff down, a line of kids (8ish to 15ish) greeted me by saying “Hi. I’m x, what’s your name? Welcome to our dojo.” I honestly forgot about that. I heard my former sensei say to a few kids who didn’t immediately do it “Excuse me x, when you see someone come in that you don’t know, what are you supposed to do?”

He’s also got a “My best list.” They’ve got to check off things on it such as homework and household chores, the parents sign off on behavior, and teachers sign off on it too. Kids have been held back from promotion and even suspended from training due to their sheets.

I’m sure there’s others out there that do this too, but I haven’t come across anyone personally. The parents are on board. Many parents have decided not to join because of it. He just wishes them well if they don’t.

 

[mrt2]

I think the point isn't whether martial arts can't be beneficial to kids. The point is, in many programs, the kids wear the same belts as the adults, which in the minds of some, cheapens the achievement of any given rank. Because the truth is, kids come into martial arts with a wide variety of abilities and at different developmental levels. And, at almost every level from white belt, to green belt all the way up to high brown, an 8 or 10 year old won't be at the same level as a person of the same rank who is 15 or older.

At my dojang, there are kids only classes which most of the kids attend, but kids are also allowed to attend adult classes, which are labeled "family" classes. I will be honest. I don't mind training with teenagers. Some of the teenagers at my school remind me a little of me when I was 15 or 16. ,But I don't like training with kids younger than 12. It makes me feel ridiculous, especially at this juncture where I am junior to almost everyone. I look forward to the day when I can attend more of the advanced classes where the kids are either working at a much higher level, are older than 12, or most likely both.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I think it's a difficult situation, you can't force people to practice or study because most would leave.

Then, you also can't fail (or refuse to test) mediocre people, because they'd leave.

If you set your standards very high chances are you wouldn't cover costs in most instances (as the undermotivated and underachievers leave), then you'd lose everyone - good and bad - because you'd have to close.

So yes, schools might be to blame for promoting people who don't really fully deserve it, but I'd rather have that and still have a school to attend than the alternative of standards so high that there's nowhere to train.

I think a lot depends on the expectations that you give your students.

In BJJ, belt promotions are typically 2-3 years apart. That's an average - ranks are issued based on ability not a timetable*. Talented students who put in lots of extra study will typically progress faster. Students who are less talented or less consistently hard working will progress slower. I've met plenty of people who were stuck at a given rank for 6+ years.

Despite this, there are plenty of commercially successful BJJ schools. That would seem to indicate that it is possible to maintain high promotions standards and still retain students. I can't imagine that such an approach wouldn't be workable for other arts.

*(This applies up to black belt. Further promotions after black belt are based on years in service practicing, teaching, and contributing to the art.)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My former teacher did a great job with the kids in this regard. I went to his dojo about a month or two ago for a seminar and to catch up with him and a few others. It’s been over 15 years since I’ve seen him. This sums it all up... once I walked in and even before I put my stuff down, a line of kids (8ish to 15ish) greeted me by saying “Hi. I’m x, what’s your name? Welcome to our dojo.” I honestly forgot about that. I heard my former sensei say to a few kids who didn’t immediately do it “Excuse me x, when you see someone come in that you don’t know, what are you supposed to do?”

He’s also got a “My best list.” They’ve got to check off things on it such as homework and household chores, the parents sign off on behavior, and teachers sign off on it too. Kids have been held back from promotion and even suspended from training due to their sheets.

I’m sure there’s others out there that do this too, but I haven’t come across anyone personally. The parents are on board. Many parents have decided not to join because of it. He just wishes them well if they don’t.

Hmm...now that's an approach to teaching kids I could sink my teeth into. If I ever get to a point where I can offer kids' classes, I'd love to chat some about what he does and how he handles it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think the point isn't whether martial arts can't be beneficial to kids. The point is, in many programs, the kids wear the same belts as the adults, which in the minds of some, cheapens the achievement of any given rank. Because the truth is, kids come into martial arts with a wide variety of abilities and at different developmental levels. And, at almost every level from white belt, to green belt all the way up to high brown, an 8 or 10 year old won't be at the same level as a person of the same rank who is 15 or older.

At my dojang, there are kids only classes which most of the kids attend, but kids are also allowed to attend adult classes, which are labeled "family" classes. I will be honest. I don't mind training with teenagers. Some of the teenagers at my school remind me a little of me when I was 15 or 16. ,But I don't like training with kids younger than 12. It makes me feel ridiculous, especially at this juncture where I am junior to almost everyone. I look forward to the day when I can attend more of the advanced classes where the kids are either working at a much higher level, are older than 12, or most likely both.

I don't like training with kids, either. And I don't like using the same rank for kids as for adults; though I've heard decent arguments for doing so, I still don't agree. I feel like there should be some differentiation. In the NGAA, kids don't wear the chest patches, so everyone in the school can easily tell the difference. On the nafuda, they are listed separately. I'm okay with that.

I'd probably just use the belts with white stripes on them.

 

[Flying Crane]

As a parent who enrolled her daughter, partially in the hopes that it helps with self-discipline I can try to share my thoughts.

First, we absolutely work on disciple at home. However, sometimes kids just don’t think what mom & dad say is true or applies outside of the home. It is sooooo nice to have what we say reinforced at Taekwondo. It really makes a difference to have someone outside of mom & dad saying the same thing.

Second, and I don’t know if this makes a difference, but it is self-disciple that I’m hoping martial arts helps to instill in my children. Not regular discipline. I hope my children learn to commit to something, to work hard at home (instead of playing all the time), and see the fruits of their labor. I want them to learn to adapt to different social settings (military style at martial arts, family style at home, school at school). I think that martial arts classes can play a role in this.

Third, my oldest is likely on the autism spectrum. The psychiatrist we visited said she had lots of red flags but doesn’t like to diagnose this young because if we work hard on it she may be able to learn skills earlier enough to keep her away from being classified as on the spectrum. We will need to go back when my daughter is 7-8 for another evaluation and a final diagnosis. I hope that martial arts can help her develop some of those skills (that we again are also working on at home).

My daughter has been in Taekwondo for almost six months now. I’ve seen a *huge* improvement in her impulsivity. Again we were working on it at home too, but I think the MA atmosphere really has helped a lot too.


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I believe regular participation in the activity itself can help build the positive traits in the student, but it should absolutely not be a responsibility of th instructor to build that in a young student.

 

[JR 137]

I don't like training with kids, either. And I don't like using the same rank for kids as for adults; though I've heard decent arguments for doing so, I still don't agree. I feel like there should be some differentiation. In the NGAA, kids don't wear the chest patches, so everyone in the school can easily tell the difference. On the nafuda, they are listed separately. I'm okay with that.

I'd probably just use the belts with white stripes on them.

If I ever ran my own organization, I’d have kids wear a gray belt instead of a black belt in any form - stripe, stickers, merit badges or anything else on it. I know it’s just a belt, but still...

 

[JR 137]

Hmm...now that's an approach to teaching kids I could sink my teeth into. If I ever get to a point where I can offer kids' classes, I'd love to chat some about what he does and how he handles it.

I don’t know the specifics of it, as I was 19 when I joined. I know the sheet changes as the get older. For the youngest ones, it had stuff like brushed my teeth, made my bed, helped clean up, etc. As they got older it had the teacher’s component and behavior in school in it.

If you get serious about it, I can get copies of it and/or put you in contact with him. I don’t think he’d mind at all.

 

[JR 137]

I think the point isn't whether martial arts can't be beneficial to kids. The point is, in many programs, the kids wear the same belts as the adults, which in the minds of some, cheapens the achievement of any given rank. Because the truth is, kids come into martial arts with a wide variety of abilities and at different developmental levels. And, at almost every level from white belt, to green belt all the way up to high brown, an 8 or 10 year old won't be at the same level as a person of the same rank who is 15 or older.

At my dojang, there are kids only classes which most of the kids attend, but kids are also allowed to attend adult classes, which are labeled "family" classes. I will be honest. I don't mind training with teenagers. Some of the teenagers at my school remind me a little of me when I was 15 or 16. ,But I don't like training with kids younger than 12. It makes me feel ridiculous, especially at this juncture where I am junior to almost everyone. I look forward to the day when I can attend more of the advanced classes where the kids are either working at a much higher level, are older than 12, or most likely both.

My teacher and I discussed a “family class” where parents who train line up with their children who train and take class together. My teacher has wanted to do it for quite a while, but we don’t have the numbers.

Kids aren’t allowed in adult classes, and adults aren’t allowed in kids’ classes in our school. If there’s an adult in a kids’ class, that adult is helping teach. Our kids vs adults line is around 15 or so. Some kids younger than that are allowed into adult classes, but it’s solely up to the CI’s discretion. The ones he allows are the kids who are higher ranked and are capable of working out with the adults without being a distraction. And they’re typically a year or so away from the age. There’s about 3 kids presently who are allowed. They’re too physically and karate-ly advanced for the kids’ classes and they’re fully capable of doing the material; we just have to take it easy on them during sparring.

If kids weren’t separated from the adults, I wouldn’t train there. Or at least I wouldn’t show up when I knew they were coming. I’m all for kids in the MA, but not to the detriment of the adults. Just like it wouldn’t be fair to load up the kids’ classes with adults and expect the kids to keep up in a class that’s supposed to be for them in the first place.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If I ever ran my own organization, I’d have kids wear a gray belt instead of a black belt in any form - stripe, stickers, merit badges or anything else on it. I know it’s just a belt, but still...

In the NGAA, they don't even have advanced belts for kids. Once kids pass youth green belt (yellow-blue-green), their only next step is adult yellow. That originated when kids had to be 13+ to start, so that made sense - they'd be 15 or 16 by the time they got to youth green. They often start younger now, which creates a problem with a 10-year-old wearing an adult rank (which implies they can do the techniques on an adult). I think I'd want more belts for teens/tweens, and an age and/or size cutoff for when they convert to adult ranks. If I ever added smaller kids, I'd have to figure out how to fit them into the whole scheme.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don’t know the specifics of it, as I was 19 when I joined. I know the sheet changes as the get older. For the youngest ones, it had stuff like brushed my teeth, made my bed, helped clean up, etc. As they got older it had the teacher’s component and behavior in school in it.

If you get serious about it, I can get copies of it and/or put you in contact with him. I don’t think he’d mind at all.

I appreciate that offer. I'll take you up on it if I ever take that step.

 

[Flying Crane]

My former teacher did a great job with the kids in this regard. I went to his dojo about a month or two ago for a seminar and to catch up with him and a few others. It’s been over 15 years since I’ve seen him. This sums it all up... once I walked in and even before I put my stuff down, a line of kids (8ish to 15ish) greeted me by saying “Hi. I’m x, what’s your name? Welcome to our dojo.” I honestly forgot about that. I heard my former sensei say to a few kids who didn’t immediately do it “Excuse me x, when you see someone come in that you don’t know, what are you supposed to do?”

He’s also got a “My best list.” They’ve got to check off things on it such as homework and household chores, the parents sign off on behavior, and teachers sign off on it too. Kids have been held back from promotion and even suspended from training due to their sheets.

I’m sure there’s others out there that do this too, but I haven’t come across anyone personally. The parents are on board. Many parents have decided not to join because of it. He just wishes them well if they don’t.

There are always exceptions.

But there is a myth that the martial arts teacher is also infused with wisdom that he can share with a student to put him on a better path, somehow. IF a teacher has that wisdom, it does not come simply from being a martial artist. It comes from other talents and insights, and training and education that he may have received. For every teacher who is good at it, I bet there are 50 who are bad at it and some of them might be downright creepy about it.

That’s my take on it, anyways.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There are always exceptions.

But there is a myth that the martial arts teacher is also infused with wisdom that he can share with a student to put him on a better path, somehow. IF a teacher has that wisdom, it does not come simply from being a martial artist. It comes from other talents and insights, and training and education that he may have received. For every teacher who is good at it, I bet there are 50 who are bad at it and some of them might be downright creepy about it.

That’s my take on it, anyways.

Agreed. This goes back to the same kind of mythology that leads to considering style-founders (and, therefor, the style) as infallible.