Points to ponder

A

A.R.K.

Guest
Greetings my friends,

I have some thoughts I wished to put down on paper so to speak. As I begin I suspect this will be rather lengthy so I ask you for your patience. I am going to try to paint a picture of some of my thought. Nothing contained herein should be considered meant to anger anyone here or anywhere. Not in the slightest. The goal is to either have the light bulb click on so to speak or to put down on paper the view of many others. I ask that you truly read these thoughts so as to really understand the point Im trying to focus in on.

Word, phrases, terms, meanings etc. I will use myself as an example. I have a Dan in Pangai-noon. WhoaWhoaWhoa!!!Hold on there buckaroo! [Warning Will RobinsonDanger Danger Danger somethings not right here]. Dave..you cant DO that. Thats a Chinese system with a Japanese rank. You fake, you fraud, you moron what are you trying to pull on us? We got you now, consider yourself EXPOSED bubba he he he. Well lets take a look at this outside the box so to speak. Pangai-noon is indeed a system of Chinese origin, no doubt about it.kinda, sorta, maybe [but not REALLY]. Let me explain what I mean, please.

What is the Martial Arts? Boil away the fluff and feathers and the pious attachments it is a means of injuring or killing someoneideally in defense of ones self, loved one or property. Thats the bottom line. Vast debate goes on as to where it all started, and Im not here to open that particular can of worms [Im opening up enough here as it is ]. But from my research, and to me just common sense it very probably came from the middle east/Babylon/Mesopotamia/Persian area of the world. That is my opinion, yours may differ. But essentially, someone was, somewhere and sometime attacked by a BG and successfully defended himself. He probably passed on the account at the local tavern demonstrating how he did it. Somewhere, someone wrote it down and perhaps combined it with a few things that made sense to him or perhaps something he used along the way. So on and so forth. No Masters, no founders, no belts, no titles etc. Eventually it was used in the art of war to defeat ones enemies. Later the fluff got attached to it. Probably sometime after whats-his-name floated down the river on a reed and stared a hole in a wall by looking at it for ten years. No insult intended  just giving this as an example.

So nothing therefore can really said to be indigenous to any particular place. I dont believe someone took a nap under a tree, had a dream of a fighting system and woke up to begin teaching something never before heard of. Styles/systems if you look back far enough in the lineage were a compilation of things that came before the founder. Somewhere in a galaxy far, far away a long time ago, someone who took Pangai-noon probably said I like this system but I dont like sashes, Im gonna go with belts instead. And they did so and passed it on, and on and on. Same information just a little different twist to it. Is this wrong. If you say yes then I submit the following to you for worthy consideration

Uechi-ryu IS Pangai-noon with added katas and drills. No let me say first that in my opinion, Uechi-ryu is a legitimate and highly worthy system with a myriad of fine martial artists. Practitioners of the system have won many world competitions etc etc and saved their bacon in real-world fights. BUT, could not someone say Uechi-ryu is a rip off of another style and they have no business doing so. In their opinion would that not void out any belt holder in the rip off style of Uechi-ryu? Of course not, and that is my point. Its not a rip off. It was Pangai-noon up until the 1940s till it was renamed and the structure set in place that now exists in Okinawa. It is legit and it is sound. I have many friends in the system.

Same with American Karate or Brazilian Ju-Jitsu. Karate is not an American word and Ju-Jitsu is not Brazilian. But does that make void the accomplishments of the practitioners of these systems? Have they not won medals and protected themselves in real-world altercations? Is that not the ultimate goal of the so-called Martial Arts? Does anyone have the right to look down their noses [not pointing a finger at anyone in particular] on these or any art forms. Do ANY of us come from a truly original system in which nothing was brought in from outside sources at some point in its history? Is there truly any such thing as a traditional art form or is that merely a catch phrase to distinguish itself from such modern things like MMA/hybrid. Are they not ALL truly MMA/hybrid at some point and then made uniform throughout the following years/generations into tradition?

If an American or Canadian or Iranian or Brazilian etc found there own system in an order that is logical to them, is it less than those systems established already in another region of this planet? Were not those systems at some point new? Is it right to look down on that which is new simply because it IS new? If the system has fulfilled the basic tenant of its purpose i.e. save your life, is it not then valid? Can an American with 30 + years experience in different MAs, with hundreds of real-world uses as well as awards and other trivial honors develop his own system? If not then I submit that every belt holder in Judo turn in his/her belt. Why? Because Judo was developed by a 22 year old with only a few years experience in Ju-Jitsu. Yet Judo IS a widely respect sport as well as effective means to go home safe at night. For that matter we may as well throw out BJJ, and American Kempo and Agni Kickboxing and Uechi-ryu and for that matter.every style and system. Especially JKD because Bruce was only in his 20s-30s and officially held no BB. How could HE be the Grandmaster so to speak,or founder etc. The reality of course is that not only could he, he did. And quite well. Do you understand the focus Im taking the long road to get to? If at this point youre angry with meyoure missing the point.

Shuri-Te IS NOT a legitimate system!!! Well there are those that disagree. Does that invalidate their trophies? Does it void their rank? If so, every BB on this board is voided because of my above points. If someone wants to call their art Shui-ryu and another Shur-TeSo? People get a bee in their bonnet over the most trivial things. The name, terms, expressions, phrases etc do not determine the ability to deal with a threat. Same with Soke or any other term. People loss their minds over such stuff. They become antangonistic, arrogantjust plain mean. Maybe Soke originally meant founder and maybe it didnt. I dont know, nor do I care. Words and titles take on new meanings. There are a BUNCH of folks who consider Soke to simply mean founder and nothing more. People with far more experience and years in than I have, and probably more than 90% of the posters here. Highly respected organizations not only use the term butGASPissues it or honors individuals with it. If it did not originally mean founderwell it does now and in a whole lot of countries! Btw, my Sokeship was granted to me by my betters in Kobe, Japan and also recognized/recorded in Soul South Korea and Saudia Arabia. Oh My God!!! Its a word people and nothing more. If it cheapen the whole experience for youwell youre probably not a founder. And those that are founders in ANY country probably dont care. And IF they do.who cares about that? Again this is not meant to elicit a hostile reaction, Im trying to open some things up.

People like to say pious things such as I train for the knowledge not the rank.yet they wear a belt. The belt says to the world you have achieved something, yet you dont care, yet you still wear it. Again, Im not bringing this up to piss anyone off! Please understand this. Truth be told, belts are a relatively new thing. The so called old world masters never wore one and if they were alive today they would probably look down on everyone of us for being so concerned with the whole issue. If you still say I doesnt mean anything to me then here is something to think aboutturn it in. Dont just not wear it, tell your instructor you are there exclusively for the training he provides and wish to be free of such material things as it impedes your training. Are there people who do that? Yep, there are people who still wear a white belt but are actually high Dans in ability. They just never got around to getting one and figured it wouldnt help their karate anyway.

In short [way to late for that Dave], I dont think any of us have the right or authority to look down on another for such trivial things. If someone has little or no training and then opens up a school to teach and laugh all the way to the bank, then yeah, we can voice concern. But to get upset over things such as what has been mentioned above.no. It is all the same wheel, just different spokes in the wheel. If a term is different or changed its meaning along the way, well it happens and not just in the Martial Arts.

If you have read this far, my many thanks. Hopefully something contained herein makes sense, or caused a light bulb to go off, or voiced ideas you have already considered. If anything herein has angered you, that was not the intent and you have missed the meat of the matter. In any regard I thank you for your time.

Take care.

David Schultz
The yank that founded Zhao Dai Wei based on stuff he learned from other people along the last three decades and put it in a system that made sense to him and some others and he and others have used to defend themselves from violent assault from real bad guys..
:)
 
You make valid points. As for the term "soke" though ... I
understand that we as Americans like to take things and make
them our own (such as the french word, foyer, pronounced by
a lot of Americans as /foy yur/ when it's actually /foy yay/), but
why use it at all? Why not make up our own, or just use
"founder" ?

Americans, and the other countries you speak of ... don't you
think maybe they 'stole' the word? We haven't adopted the
word, we've adapted it. That is, if what you say is true and that
many MAists in countries other than Japan consider it to mean
"founder". True, American's history is full of "adapting" foreign
words, but most of those are from Latin, Roman, and Old Greek.
Words that aren't in use anymore, other than in very abstract
settings.

Using the term "soke" in the case of MA is a bit haphazard, since
it's still a word in use in Japan, and with the world getting
smaller, and the fact that it's a joke to the Japanese getting out
more and more, you're just asking for trouble by using the word.
I present you with the same tidbit you gave in your post. It's
not about rank, so why wear the belt? Using the term soke has
the purpose of presenting a certain stature, for whatever reason.
If it's not, why belong to a soke council/club/organization at all?
Why even imply being a soke? So if the Japanese go on making
it well known what the term currently really means, you lose the
stature and respect you're looking for, don't you?
 
Mr. shcultz I respect the stand that you have made here and i also feel that you make valid points. In the martial arts there are many words stolen from other cultures such as.....kata.................
if you catch slack for using soke then we should all catch it for using other words. soke may have more meaning to the japanese
.......america has adopted this word to mean founder simple definition. as kata defined is basic.....to americans it's performing forms.

many americans have forgotton that to some people from china, japan, korea ect. martial arts is not just a sport or self defence it's thier life and thier religion so I can understand why some people could get a little upset, but those individuals should relize that americans mean no harm by using these terms and rather than getting upset with us they should get upset with their own people who have brought these terms to this country and made millions of dollars teaching americans..........thats just one mans opinion hope i didnt offend anyone because that was not my intent.
 
Well, just to put a general spin on the discussion, let's say language probably developed first in a set area then spread from there...

Does that mean that I can then randomly use words, grammar and other syntax from any system I want because they were all once related in some Babblesque mix?

I suppose so, but then it kinda misses the point of developing a cohesive language with rules and structure that makes it understandable. At best, I look sloppy rather than enlightened, at worst, I'm incomprehensible to all would be readers/listeners.
 
Originally posted by DAC..florida
Mr. shcultz I respect the stand that you have made here and i also feel that you make valid points. In the martial arts there are many words stolen from other cultures such as.....kata.................

I think one of the first grand pooh bah of fakes to use the term Soke was Rod Sacharnoski and it was used to gain money. Although he might have been the first dork to use the term he certainly wasnt the last.
Since then we have seen all kind of Mutual Sokeship granting societies


Originally posted by DAC..florida
if you catch slack for using soke then we should all catch it for using other words. soke may have more meaning to the japanese
.......america has adopted this word to mean founder simple definition. as kata defined is basic.....to americans it's performing forms.

Why not just use the English word founder.
It makes sense, American style, use American words. Then there is less confusion all around.
Its stupid to use a word that you dont know what it means.

Originally posted by DAC..florida
many americans have forgotton that to some people from china, japan, korea ect. martial arts is not just a sport or self defence it's thier life and thier religion so I can understand why some people could get a little upset, but those individuals should relize that americans mean no harm by using these terms and rather than getting upset with us they should get upset with their own people who have brought these terms to this country and made millions of dollars teaching americans..........thats just one mans opinion hope i didnt offend anyone because that was not my intent.

What in the hell are you talking about???
I have yet to see where you can buy dan rank or a Soke rank on the Internet in Japan or Asia.
HOWEVER, in the US there are plenty of places.
 
Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
Word, phrases, terms, meanings etc. I will use myself as an example. I have a Dan in Pangai-noon. WhoaWhoaWhoa!!!Hold on there buckaroo! [Warning Will RobinsonDanger Danger Danger somethings not right here]. Dave..you cant DO that. Thats a Chinese system with a Japanese rank. You fake, you fraud, you moron what are you trying to pull on us? We got you now, consider yourself EXPOSED bubba he he he. Well lets take a look at this outside the box so to speak. Pangai-noon is indeed a system of Chinese origin, no doubt about it.kinda, sorta, maybe [but not REALLY]. Let me explain what I mean, please.


Pangainoon was the original name used for what is known today as Uechi Ryu.
There were a few people in 1978 that broke away from Kanyei Uechis students to form the New Pangainoon Ryu. These revisionists were Seiko Itokazu and Kinjo Takashi.
There reason for doing so was political as well as wanting to incorporate Okianwan Kobudo into the system.

Schultz,

You never did answer my question about who you got your 8th dan from in Pangainoon.
Since it is such a high rank it could only have come from a higher ranked source which would lead us to someone in Okinawa.
I will make it a real simple question so there is no confusion.
Who did you test for 8th dan with?
Since Pangainoon now uses Okinawan Kobudo which system of Okianwan Kobudo do you use?
Also, do you know the name of Pangainoon in Chinese?
 
Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei

Shuri-Te IS NOT a legitimate system!!! Well there are those that disagree. Does that invalidate their trophies? Does it void their rank? If so, every BB on this board is voided because of my above points. If someone wants to call their art Shui-ryu and another Shur-TeSo? People get a bee in their bonnet over the most trivial things.

False claims are just thatFALSE.

You still have yet to supply a list of those names of teachers that teach Shuri-Te Ryu down in Okinawa.


Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
David Schultz
The yank that founded Zhao Dai Wei based on stuff he learned from other people along the last three decades and put it in a system that made sense to him and some others and he and others have used to defend themselves from violent assault from real bad guys..
:)

So you say Virtual Tough Guy.

Combat Poseur
How to Spot a Virtual Tough Guy

Its Only a Flesh Wound
Your average Virtual Tough Guy has been there and done that, man. He's been shot, he's been stabbed, he's been cut. He's won countless fights and lost a few, too.



Questionable Information
The average Virtual Tough Guy loves to be the center of attention, and he wants you to believe he's an expert. To that end he's constantly telling you what he thinks he knows. The problem is that he's basically ignorant -- and, as a result, he'll contradict himself. Apart from contradictions, he'll often dispense information that's just plain false or based on misconceptions.
-----------------------------

Kind of like using the word Soke........
 
well unless I'm missing the point of what you are saying, basicly you just said names and words are in essence variables, placeholders for conceots and ideas, there meaning changes over time so it isn't true to say that a word has one set meaning that can not evolve.

If that's the case I agree.. Realy I could use any given word to mean any given idea as long as who I'm speaking to understands my usage. If for some reason someone else were to intercept sucha communication or if they were to perhaps believe that I was speaking to them what I say might not make sence.. This I think is where you have problems.. the word you are useing means one thing to some people and one thing to another group of people, as a result things don't add up and someone calls it. They aren't wrong for calling it.. It just doesn't add up from their perspective.

to make that simple, if I say 1+2 = 5 yet I'm using 5 as a proxy for 3 than what I said was correct, but if someone doesn't know this and says I'm wrong, they are also correct ina sence because to them 5 is not equalto 3.

Ok hope that made sence....
 
I would like to know where you got buying dan rank from what i wrote?

I viewed this site for over a week before registering and the only thing that i've seen come from you is negative statements bashing everyone else, and your suposed to be a mediator on this site........................................................................................

My father always told me not to mind the person who is constantly picking on others because they are the ones who have the low self esteem, is that true?

I have registared on this site to hopefully to recieve other peoples experiences in the martial arts not to get into a debate
with you so if you have nothing positive to say to me .....but out !
 
Originally posted by DAC..florida
I would like to know where you got buying dan rank from what i wrote?

You didnt..I brought it up based on this statement.

Originally posted by DAC..florida
..but those individuals should relize that americans mean no harm by using these terms

Seems all the Americans that use the word Soke also belong to some Mutual Soke Recognition Society to give their bogus title credibility and most have some sort of rank for sale...........on the Internet.

Originally posted by DAC..florida
..and rather than getting upset with us they should get upset with their own people who have brought these terms to this country and made millions of dollars teaching americans..........

Sounds like a racist comment if I ever heard one
Also, which Asian teachers are using the word Soke in the US and of them how many are millionaires?

Originally posted by DAC..florida
I viewed this site for over a week before registering and the only thing that i've seen come from you is negative statements bashing everyone else, and your suposed to be a mediator on this site........................................................................................

I guess you didnt look at it long enough then.
Read under my name again and show me where it says mediator/moderator or whatever.
I am not either, just a mere grunt like the rest of the people here.

Originally posted by DAC..florida
My father always told me not to mind the person who is constantly picking on others because they are the ones who have the low self esteem, is that true?

Dont know. I am just voicing my opinion like the rest of you.
It obviously is a sore spot with you though..are my comments getting under you skin or something?
Feel free to dispute anything I post with a logical argument based on your personal experiences or some other form of facts.

Originally posted by DAC..florida
I have registared on this site to hopefully to recieve other peoples experiences in the martial arts not to get into a debate with you so if you have nothing positive to say to me .....but out !

Well you seem to have already made up your mind on certain subjects and have already shut the door to your open mind.

If America has adopted the word Soke then I am wondering why it isnt in the American English Dictionary.
It is in the Japanese dictionary and seems to be quite different than the fake Sokes in the west use it for.
 
Zhao Dai Wei... Sounds like Catonese... In other words, bad Mandarin. In fact, it sounds like VERY POOR Catonese. Why would someone who has roots from mostly Japanese systems use a Chinese name?
 
Originally posted by MartialArtist
Zhao Dai Wei... Sounds like Catonese... In other words, bad Mandarin. In fact, it sounds like VERY POOR Catonese. Why would someone who has roots from mostly Japanese systems use a Chinese name?

I am wondering why a guy that supposedly trained in and claims rank in Okinawa arts uses Japanese titles (Soke) and Japanese techniques on his website, (Some of the photos on there are Aikido techniques.poorly executed mind you but still recognizable), then calls what he does by a Chinese name.:confused:

The "Red Flags" just keep popping up........
 
Schultz,

You mentioned the kata of Pangainoon before.

What are the names of the kata in Pangainoon?
 
First, Zhao Dai Wei,

You are a very wise man. You are able to read between the lines and see whats really there. You are a stand up guy.

Second, RyuShiKan, martial arts does not have anything to do with with country bashing, not if your for real. By the way, your "what we offer picture". WEAK! Looked like a typical AMERICAN Karate class to me! You've been trying to clown me???

The terminology? We AMERICANS would of loved to of been able to concentrate on the techniques and the kata without being corrected because we did one technique and we named another in Japanese. The terminology was a part of the program from the beginning and still is, LIVE WITH IT!!

When then martial arts came here, the terminology came with it. So the terminology is ours now. Theres other terminology that we have too. Tacos, burritos, you name it something from every culture is here and it isn't going to be the same as it is there.

The truth is our form may be lacking (compared to the perfect ones) but WE ARE THE BEST FIGHTERS IN THE WORLD!!!
 
Originally posted by akja

Originally posted by akja
Second, RyuShiKan, martial arts does not have anything to do with with country bashing, not if your for real. By the way, your "what we offer picture". WEAK! Looked like a typical AMERICAN Karate class to me! You've been trying to clown me???

I love it when people say that and then try a class. :D

WEAK is it?
Well the guy on the left in that photo..the yellow belt.
He took second place in the All Northern Japan Kyokushin Tournament a little over a year ago.

The western guy on the mpegs you saw..he was on the Polish Olympic Judo team and is a former kick boxer.

Yeah...I guess we should all stop what we are doing and join your new style and become real tough guys uh?:rolleyes:
 
akja,

The best fighters in the world eh!

Wake up and smell the roses son. You need to get out more.

Mike.
 
Originally posted by Mike Clarke
akja,

The best fighters in the world eh!

Wake up and smell the roses son. You need to get out more.

Mike.
Who does have the best fighter and explain?

Who has the most professional world champions of all time? Just wondering. But whatever we get exposed to, we always rise to the top!
 
Originally posted by Mike Clarke
akja,

The best fighters in the world eh!

Wake up and smell the roses son. You need to get out more.

Mike.

Just checked out your site. United Kingdom, eh.
 
Well I'm not realy very aware of international competition, butI'm curious who you think the best fighters are in the world and how do you grade them on their ability?
 
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