A
A.R.K.
Guest
Greetings my friends,
I have some thoughts I wished to put down on paper so to speak. As I begin I suspect this will be rather lengthy so I ask you for your patience. I am going to try to paint a picture of some of my thought. Nothing contained herein should be considered meant to anger anyone here or anywhere. Not in the slightest. The goal is to either have the light bulb click on so to speak or to put down on paper the view of many others. I ask that you truly read these thoughts so as to really understand the point IÂ’m trying to focus in on.
Word, phrases, terms, meanings etc. I will use myself as an example. I have a Dan in Pangai-noon. Whoa…Whoa…Whoa!!!…Hold on there buckaroo! [Warning Will Robinson…Danger Danger Danger something’s not right here]. Dave..you can’t DO that. That’s a Chinese system with a Japanese rank. You fake, you fraud, you moron what are you trying to pull on us? We got you now, consider yourself EXPOSED bubba he he he. Well let’s take a look at this ‘outside’ the box so to speak. Pangai-noon is indeed a system of Chinese origin, no doubt about it….kinda, sorta, maybe [but not REALLY]. Let me explain what I mean, please.
What is the Martial Arts? Boil away the fluff and feathers and the pious attachments it is a means of injuring or killing someoneÂ…ideally in defense of ones self, loved one or property. ThatÂ’s the bottom line. Vast debate goes on as to where it all started, and IÂ’m not here to open that particular can of worms [IÂ’m opening up enough here as it is ]. But from my research, and to me just common sense it very probably came from the middle east/Babylon/Mesopotamia/Persian area of the world. That is my opinion, yours may differ. But essentially, someone was, somewhere and sometime attacked by a BG and successfully defended himself. He probably passed on the account at the local tavern demonstrating how he did it. Somewhere, someone wrote it down and perhaps combined it with a few things that made sense to him or perhaps something he used along the way. So on and so forth. No Masters, no founders, no belts, no titles etc. Eventually it was used in the art of war to defeat ones enemies. Later the ‘fluffÂ’ got attached to it. Probably sometime after ‘whats-his-name floated down the river on a reed and stared a hole in a wall by looking at it for ten years. No insult intended  just giving this as an example.
So nothing therefore can really said to be indigenous to any particular place. I don’t believe someone took a nap under a tree, had a dream of a fighting system and woke up to begin teaching something never before heard of. Styles/systems if you look back far enough in the ‘lineage’ were a compilation of things that came before the ‘founder’. Somewhere in a galaxy far, far away a long time ago, someone who took Pangai-noon probably said “I like this system but I don’t like sashes, I’m gonna go with belts instead”. And they did so and passed it on, and on and on. Same information just a little different twist to it. Is this ‘wrong’. If you say yes then I submit the following to you for worthy consideration…
Uechi-ryu IS Pangai-noon with added katas and drills. No let me say first that in my opinion, Uechi-ryu is a legitimate and highly worthy system with a myriad of fine martial artists. Practitioners of the system have won many world competitions etc etc and saved their bacon in real-world fights. BUT, could not someone say Uechi-ryu is a rip off of another style and they have no business doing so. In their opinion would that not void out any belt holder in the rip off style of Uechi-ryu? Of course not, and that is my point. ItÂ’s not a rip off. It was Pangai-noon up until the 1940Â’s till it was renamed and the structure set in place that now exists in Okinawa. It is legit and it is sound. I have many friends in the system.
Same with American Karate or Brazilian Ju-Jitsu. Karate is not an American word and Ju-Jitsu is not Brazilian. But does that make void the accomplishments of the practitioners of these systems? Have they not won medals and protected themselves in real-world altercations? Is that not the ultimate goal of the so-called Martial Arts? Does anyone have the right to look down their noses [not pointing a finger at anyone in particular] on these or any art forms. Do ANY of us come from a truly original system in which nothing was brought in from outside sources at some point in its history? Is there truly any such thing as a ‘traditional’ art form or is that merely a catch phrase to distinguish itself from such ‘modern’ things like MMA/hybrid. Are they not ALL truly MMA/hybrid at some point and then made uniform throughout the following years/generations into ‘tradition’?
If an American or Canadian or Iranian or Brazilian etc ‘found’ there own system in an order that is logical to them, is it less than those systems established already in another region of this planet? Were not those systems at some point ‘new’? Is it right to look down on that which is new simply because it IS new? If the system has fulfilled the basic tenant of it’s purpose i.e. save your life, is it not then valid? Can an American with 30 + years experience in different MA’s, with hundreds of real-world uses as well as awards and other trivial honors develop his own system? If not then I submit that every belt holder in Judo turn in his/her belt. Why? Because Judo was developed by a 22 year old with only a few years experience in Ju-Jitsu. Yet Judo IS a widely respect sport as well as effective means to go home safe at night. For that matter we may as well throw out BJJ, and American Kempo and Agni Kickboxing and Uechi-ryu and for that matter….every style and system. Especially JKD because Bruce was only in his 20’s-30’s and officially held no BB. How could HE be the Grandmaster so to speak,or founder etc. The reality of course is that not only could he, he did. And quite well. Do you understand the focus I’m taking the long road to get to? If at this point you’re angry with me…you’re missing the point.
Shuri-Te IS NOT a legitimate system!!! Well there are those that disagree. Does that invalidate their trophies? Does it void their rank? If so, every BB on this board is voided because of my above points. If someone wants to call their art Shui-ryu and another Shur-Te…So? People get a bee in their bonnet over the most trivial things. The name, terms, expressions, phrases etc do not determine the ability to deal with a threat. Same with Soke or any other term. People loss their minds over such stuff. They become antangonistic, arrogant…just plain mean. Maybe Soke originally meant founder and maybe it didn’t. I don’t know, nor do I care. Words and titles take on new meanings. There are a BUNCH of folks who consider Soke to simply mean founder and nothing more. People with far more experience and years in than I have, and probably more than 90% of the posters here. Highly respected organizations not only use the term but…GASP…issues it or honors individuals with it. If it did not originally mean founder…well it does now and in a whole lot of countries! Btw, my ‘Sokeship’ was granted to me by my betters in Kobe, Japan and also recognized/recorded in Soul South Korea and Saudia Arabia. Oh My God!!! It’s a word people and nothing more. If it ‘cheapen’ the whole experience for you…well you’re probably not a founder. And those that are founders in ANY country probably don’t care. And IF they do….who cares about that? Again this is not meant to elicit a hostile reaction, I’m trying to open some things up.
People like to say pious things such as “I train for the knowledge not the rank”….yet they wear a belt. The belt says to the world you have achieved something, yet you don’t care, yet you still wear it. Again, I’m not bringing this up to piss anyone off! Please understand this. Truth be told, belts are a relatively new thing. The so called ‘old world’ masters never wore one and if they were alive today they would probably look down on everyone of us for being so concerned with the whole issue. If you still say “I doesn’t mean anything to me” then here is something to think about…turn it in. Don’t just ‘not wear it’, tell your instructor you are there exclusively for the training he provides and wish to be free of such material things as it impedes your training. Are there people who do that? Yep, there are people who still wear a white belt but are actually high Dans in ability. They just never got around to getting one and figured it wouldn’t help their karate anyway.
In short [way to late for that Dave], I don’t think any of us have the right or authority to look down on another for such trivial things. If someone has little or no training and then opens up a school to teach and laugh all the way to the bank, then yeah, we can voice concern. But to get upset over things such as what has been mentioned above….no. It is all the same wheel, just different spokes in the wheel. If a term is different or changed it’s meaning along the way, well it happens and not just in the ‘Martial Arts’.
If you have read this far, my many thanks. Hopefully something contained herein makes sense, or caused a light bulb to go off, or voiced ideas you have already considered. If anything herein has angered you, that was not the intent and you have missed the ‘meat’ of the matter. In any regard I thank you for your time.
Take care.
David Schultz
The yank that ‘founded’ Zhao Dai Wei based on stuff he learned from other people along the last three decades and put it in a system that made sense to him and some others and he and others have used to defend themselves from violent assault from real bad guys………..
I have some thoughts I wished to put down on paper so to speak. As I begin I suspect this will be rather lengthy so I ask you for your patience. I am going to try to paint a picture of some of my thought. Nothing contained herein should be considered meant to anger anyone here or anywhere. Not in the slightest. The goal is to either have the light bulb click on so to speak or to put down on paper the view
Word
What is the Martial Arts? Boil away the fluff and feathers and the pious attachments it is a means of injuring or killing someoneÂ…ideally in defense of ones self, loved one or property. ThatÂ’s the bottom line. Vast debate goes on as to where it all started, and IÂ’m not here to open that particular can of worms [IÂ’m opening up enough here as it is ]. But from my research, and to me just common sense it very probably came from the middle east/Babylon/Mesopotamia/Persian area of the world. That is my opinion, yours may differ. But essentially, someone was, somewhere and sometime attacked by a BG and successfully defended himself. He probably passed on the account at the local tavern demonstrating how he did it. Somewhere, someone wrote it down and perhaps combined it with a few things that made sense to him or perhaps something he used along the way. So on and so forth. No Masters, no founders, no belts, no titles etc. Eventually it was used in the art of war to defeat ones enemies. Later the ‘fluffÂ’ got attached to it. Probably sometime after ‘whats-his-name floated down the river on a reed and stared a hole in a wall by looking at it for ten years. No insult intended  just giving this as an example.
So nothing therefore can really said to be indigenous to any particular place. I don’t believe someone took a nap under a tree, had a dream of a fighting system and woke up to begin teaching something never before heard of. Styles/systems if you look back far enough in the ‘lineage’ were a compilation of things that came before the ‘founder’. Somewhere in a galaxy far, far away a long time ago, someone who took Pangai-noon probably said “I like this system but I don’t like sashes, I’m gonna go with belts instead”. And they did so and passed it on, and on and on. Same information just a little different twist to it. Is this ‘wrong’. If you say yes then I submit the following to you for worthy consideration…
Uechi-ryu IS Pangai-noon with added katas and drills. No let me say first that in my opinion, Uechi-ryu is a legitimate and highly worthy system with a myriad of fine martial artists. Practitioners of the system have won many world competitions etc etc and saved their bacon in real-world fights. BUT, could not someone say Uechi-ryu is a rip off of another style and they have no business doing so. In their opinion would that not void out any belt holder in the rip off style of Uechi-ryu? Of course not, and that is my point. ItÂ’s not a rip off. It was Pangai-noon up until the 1940Â’s till it was renamed and the structure set in place that now exists in Okinawa. It is legit and it is sound. I have many friends in the system.
Same with American Karate or Brazilian Ju-Jitsu. Karate is not an American word and Ju-Jitsu is not Brazilian. But does that make void the accomplishments of the practitioners of these systems? Have they not won medals and protected themselves in real-world altercations? Is that not the ultimate goal of the so-called Martial Arts? Does anyone have the right to look down their noses [not pointing a finger at anyone in particular] on these or any art forms. Do ANY of us come from a truly original system in which nothing was brought in from outside sources at some point in its history? Is there truly any such thing as a ‘traditional’ art form or is that merely a catch phrase to distinguish itself from such ‘modern’ things like MMA/hybrid. Are they not ALL truly MMA/hybrid at some point and then made uniform throughout the following years/generations into ‘tradition’?
If an American or Canadian or Iranian or Brazilian etc ‘found’ there own system in an order that is logical to them, is it less than those systems established already in another region of this planet? Were not those systems at some point ‘new’? Is it right to look down on that which is new simply because it IS new? If the system has fulfilled the basic tenant of it’s purpose i.e. save your life, is it not then valid? Can an American with 30 + years experience in different MA’s, with hundreds of real-world uses as well as awards and other trivial honors develop his own system? If not then I submit that every belt holder in Judo turn in his/her belt. Why? Because Judo was developed by a 22 year old with only a few years experience in Ju-Jitsu. Yet Judo IS a widely respect sport as well as effective means to go home safe at night. For that matter we may as well throw out BJJ, and American Kempo and Agni Kickboxing and Uechi-ryu and for that matter….every style and system. Especially JKD because Bruce was only in his 20’s-30’s and officially held no BB. How could HE be the Grandmaster so to speak,or founder etc. The reality of course is that not only could he, he did. And quite well. Do you understand the focus I’m taking the long road to get to? If at this point you’re angry with me…you’re missing the point
Shuri-Te IS NOT a legitimate system!!! Well there are those that disagree. Does that invalidate their trophies? Does it void their rank? If so, every BB on this board is voided because of my above points. If someone wants to call their art Shui-ryu and another Shur-Te…So? People get a bee in their bonnet over the most trivial things. The name, terms, expressions, phrases etc do not determine the ability to deal with a threat. Same with Soke or any other term. People loss their minds over such stuff. They become antangonistic, arrogant…just plain mean. Maybe Soke originally meant founder and maybe it didn’t. I don’t know, nor do I care. Words and titles take on new meanings. There are a BUNCH of folks who consider Soke to simply mean founder and nothing more. People with far more experience and years in than I have, and probably more than 90% of the posters here. Highly respected organizations not only use the term but…GASP…issues it or honors individuals with it. If it did not originally mean founder…well it does now and in a whole lot of countries! Btw, my ‘Sokeship’ was granted to me by my betters in Kobe, Japan and also recognized/recorded in Soul South Korea and Saudia Arabia. Oh My God!!! It’s a word people and nothing more. If it ‘cheapen’ the whole experience for you…well you’re probably not a founder. And those that are founders in ANY country probably don’t care. And IF they do….who cares about that? Again this is not meant to elicit a hostile reaction, I’m trying to open some things up.
People like to say pious things such as “I train for the knowledge not the rank”….yet they wear a belt. The belt says to the world you have achieved something, yet you don’t care, yet you still wear it. Again, I’m not bringing this up to piss anyone off! Please understand this. Truth be told, belts are a relatively new thing. The so called ‘old world’ masters never wore one and if they were alive today they would probably look down on everyone of us for being so concerned with the whole issue. If you still say “I doesn’t mean anything to me” then here is something to think about…turn it in. Don’t just ‘not wear it’, tell your instructor you are there exclusively for the training he provides and wish to be free of such material things as it impedes your training. Are there people who do that? Yep, there are people who still wear a white belt but are actually high Dans in ability. They just never got around to getting one and figured it wouldn’t help their karate anyway.
In short [way to late for that Dave], I don’t think any of us have the right or authority to look down on another for such trivial things. If someone has little or no training and then opens up a school to teach and laugh all the way to the bank, then yeah, we can voice concern. But to get upset over things such as what has been mentioned above….no. It is all the same wheel, just different spokes in the wheel. If a term is different or changed it’s meaning along the way, well it happens and not just in the ‘Martial Arts’.
If you have read this far, my many thanks. Hopefully something contained herein makes sense, or caused a light bulb to go off, or voiced ideas you have already considered. If anything herein has angered you, that was not the intent and you have missed the ‘meat’ of the matter. In any regard I thank you for your time.
Take care.
David Schultz
The yank that ‘founded’ Zhao Dai Wei based on stuff he learned from other people along the last three decades and put it in a system that made sense to him and some others and he and others have used to defend themselves from violent assault from real bad guys………..
