Dan rank in another system - your input...

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Your logic works like this:
A:I claim I have $100,000 in my pocket..........prove I don't.

My logic works like this:
A:I claim I have $100,000 in my pocket.
B: OK, prove you do...let's see it.


Nope, the burden is on you…you claim the rank, you prove you have it........…like the saying goes?.put up or shut up.

Bravo! The one who makes the claim, has the burden of proof.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
It is never correct to lose patience with someone you don't know. This other person is not a reflection of me. You would have known this had you simply welcomed me in and gotten to know me.

I have already changed my site to 'founder'.

I read the thread. I lost my patience with this crap.

I am Her Majesty's OO7, with licence to kill.
I have a PHD in Neural science, Astronomy, Military strategy, conferred to me by a Bavarian Prince, from an internationally known prestigious institute.
I served in the Gulf War, Somalia, covert operations all over South America, Middle East, Bosnia. My security clearance is Code Omega, authorized by the Directorate of Operation personally.
Everybody calls me Soke. I am the founder of the top secret DeltaOmegaSpeztnazMaga covert operation martial art.

By the way, due to my Top Secret Security Clearance status, I am not allowed to talk about anything in specific or in details.

Now you prove me wrong.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Bravo! The one who makes the claim, has the burden of proof.

I don't blame him for not wanting everyone to rip apart what he has. I put myself out there for the world to see.

But out of all of you out there that stuck your noses in, only 2 besides me were bold enough to put their experience out there to be scrutinized.

Granted some have sites that we can refer too, but the rest of you out there. We are being coldcocked by who knows who.!??

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Mike Clarke
ZDW,

Be the founder of your own system by all means, but don't think that puts you in any position other than the hundreds of others who couldn't go the distance as a student, and felt it was time they became a leader.


Mike.

Thats harsh, there are many reasons why people don't train with their instructors and I don't want to type the same stuff in every thread, but if you go to the thread " how long before you can / should teach" you will see why I quit training with my brother-in-law.

Also we are still friends and we talk at great lenth. Don't take this wrong, but when I read your posts, for some reason I picture him.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by akja
Thats harsh, there are many reasons why people don't train with their instructors and I don't want to type the same stuff in every thread, but if you go to the thread " how long before you can / should teach" you will see why I quit training with my brother-in-law.

Also we are still friends and we talk at great lenth. Don't take this wrong, but when I read your posts, for some reason I picture him.

There is a big difference between “how long until you teach” & “how long until you make up your own style”.

Any idiot can make up his/her own style..........as can be seen all over the Internet.
That doesn’t mean it will be as good as other systems nor does it mean that person has the skill and experience to make up their own system.

I have yet to see a new made up system that wasn’t a hodge-podge collection of poorly executed techniques from other systems.
Some may argue the point that people like Ueshiba made up their own system.
What people fail to see is he “tested” is art by going around and challenging other dojo.
Ueshiba in his prime was about 5’ nothing and 230lbs of muscle.
Contrary to popular misconception he was of quite a different mind set when he was younger. At the end of his life he was all “love and peace” but in his younger days was a real head knocker.
Another person that comes to mind is Miyamoto Musashi. He fought and killed 60 people by the time he was 30 years old. When he was in his 60’s he remarked that he was just lucky and had no idea about strategy or fighting………he basically spent his whole life developing his art………..which I might add nobody has been able to replicate.

So those of you that have “invented” your own style don’t think that qualifies you to rub shoulders with the likes of the above two gentlemen……..it sorely does not.
People talk of how their art has been tested by “real life encounters”………BS!
To those people I say go into someone’s dojo and drop a challenge to kick all their asses.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
It is never correct to lose patience with someone you don't know.

That’s nonsense.
I ride a bike here in Japan and people I don’t know pull out in front of me or cut me off all the time. I lose patience with them because if they were to hit me I would be dead.

Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
This other person is not a reflection of me.

Oh but he is! He had the same excuses & rhetoric that you used, refused to produce certain documentation to back his claims of multiple high ranks, belongs to several “Soke factories” of dubious standing as do you, and even claims a PhD. ……….I’d say you guys were two peas in a pod.

Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
You would have known this had you simply welcomed me in and gotten to know me.

Any westerner that uses the title Soke coupled with high unverifiable dubious sounding dan ranks and a PhD. gets the same treatment by me for the mere fact that it is the first of many rad flags that will pop up.

 

[GaryM]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Gary,

Baktoou speaks to you too?!

We seem to be on the same wavelength. Be afraid. BE VERY AFRAID!

 

[sweeper]

out of curiosity, did Miyamoto Musashi ever teach his art to anyone? I mean did he found a school in the physical sence? Because if not, it's virtualy imposable to replicate a martial art given only litirature to go on, and musachi didn't even write much about it right?

 

[RyuShiKan]

Yes he did. I know he had at least one student that he wrote the Book of 5 Rings for. I have can't remember the students name though.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
I have yet to see a new made up system that wasn’t a hodge-podge collection of poorly executed techniques from other systems.

Ever?

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Kirk
Ever?

Not yet.

 

[James Kovacich]

RyuShiKan, are you calling me an idiot? I for one haven't made any claim of better. Just there is a need for changes. Our martial ancestors new this and they did this as needed.

But the last century failed to have the same vision as their instructors before them had. Do you really think that I have a bunch of hodge podge poorly ececuted techniques techniques?

Well since you haven't figured it out. Its about being a fighter. I like Chi Sao the way I was taught. You may see it differant in a Wing Chun School though but the concept is the same.

My technique isn't based on techniques. Techniques are used as drills to develop sensitivity. Don't think any of your Ryuwhatever it is you do would be included. Thats not the way I would fight.

The way I train is 65% standing up and 35% on the ground.Theres more standup because thats where you want to be, on your feet. My groundwork is based on BJJ but it would be impossible to add all these "whole systems" into one, it would be too much, pure overkill. You guys logic is off. On the ground you need to be able to impose your will, if you can't then your system is lacking. The same goes for the grappling arts, if they can't impose their will while on their feet, then their system is lacking.

Theres always room to improve.

None of my art is based on what you teach, I guarantee it.

"Use what is usefull, reject what is useless and add what is specifically my own!" That quote was famous by my Sijo and thats all I've done.

I know now why most of the BJJ and JKD guys stay out of the "General Talk" area!

 

[Master of Blades]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
I read the thread. I lost my patience with this crap.

I am Her Majesty's OO7, with licence to kill.
I have a PHD in Neural science, Astronomy, Military strategy, conferred to me by a Bavarian Prince, from an internationally known prestigious institute.
I served in the Gulf War, Somalia, covert operations all over South America, Middle East, Bosnia. My security clearance is Code Omega, authorized by the Directorate of Operation personally.
Everybody calls me Soke. I am the founder of the top secret DeltaOmegaSpeztnazMaga covert operation martial art.

By the way, due to my Top Secret Security Clearance status, I am not allowed to talk about anything in specific or in details.

Now you prove me wrong.

Sarcasm.....I love it :rofl:

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
Here is a question for your consideration...

An individual has earned Dan rank in one or more systems. The individual comes in contact with the founder/Head Grandmaster etc of a style or system that differs from the ones he/she has attained Dan rank. The Grandmaster of the differing style/system decides to honor this individual with Dan rank in his [the GM] style/system due to factors such as reputation, achievments, teaching ability, contributions to the Arts etc.

In your opinion, can a Grandmaster do this? Does he have that authority concerning who he considers worthy to issue Dan rank in his style/system. Is the Dan rank legitimate?

I look forward to opinions from everyone. I'll check back in a day or so. Thanks for your considered input.

Stay safe.

Personally, I think it depends on the situation. I have Dan rank in Doce Pares Eskrima/Eskrido from Grandmaster Cacoy Canete. When I was awarded it, I had never formally trained in the system. I did, however, have some limited background in traditional Doce Pares and had a solid background in a system called Sikal (a blend of elements from various systems of Filipino Kali and Indonesian Pentjak Silat).

Eskrido uses stick work from Doce Pares, locks from Aikido, and throws from Judo.

Sikal uses stick work from several FMA systems (including some Doce Pares, but the core of it is Lacoste/Inosanto blend), locking from FMA influenced by Small Circle Jujitsu, and throws from Silat.

According to GM Cacoy, I had all the elements required of a 1st Dan in Eskrido. The fact that those elements came from different sources was of little importance. I was able to do everything that GM Cacoy brought out. My flavor was a little different, but my grasp of the underlying concepts was solid.

Now, though, I've spent several years working with the Eskrido and have a 4th Dan. I still draw my locks from FMA and, now, Shen Chuan and my throws from Silat (and some from Shen Chuan). But I have more of the Eskrido flavor in my work now. And I feel that I'm on equal footing with any of the other 4th Dans in the organization.

If, however, my background hadn't included the elements of Eskrido, GM Cacoy wouldn't have given me the 1st Dan.

So, if you're talking about (for instance) a TKD guy who's never picked up a weapon being awarded a Dan ranking (or equivalent) in a weapon art, then I'd have to say that I think it's wrong.

But, in the end, it's the Grandmaster's system -- his house, his rules. Personally, I think something like this should, at best, be qualified as an "honorary" ranking (this is, in fact, what I considered my 1st Dan in Eskrido until I had put the time and effort in to feel that I had earned it).

However, as a general rule of thumb, I personally feel that someone should have some training in a system before they get any kind of rank in it.

Mike

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by pesilat
Personally, I think it depends on the situation.

According to GM Cacoy, I had all the elements required of a 1st Dan in Eskrido. The fact that those elements came from different sources was of little importance. I was able to do everything that GM Cacoy brought out. My flavor was a little different, but my grasp of the underlying concepts was solid.


If, however, my background hadn't included the elements of Eskrido, GM Cacoy wouldn't have given me the 1st Dan.

So, if you're talking about (for instance) a TKD guy who's never picked up a weapon being awarded a Dan ranking (or equivalent) in a weapon art, then I'd have to say that I think it's wrong.

But, in the end, it's the Grandmaster's system -- his house, his rules.

Mike

They don't undertand anything that isn't done the traditional way.

They've ripped me apart for being honest when their ringleader and 98% of the other bigmouths won't even come out and lay their training history on the line for scrutiny.

They've barely got me warmed up!

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by akja
RyuShiKan, are you calling me an idiot?

Read the statement over a couple of times before you get all paranoid and see if I single you out.

 

[James Kovacich]

I read it several times before opening up. Leave out the titles and phds and its all been said to me. Mostly by coldcockers who come and go so fast you don't know who they are or where they're coming from.

All that aside I'm just being me I'm real good at being a big mouth

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by akja
They don't undertand anything that isn't done the traditional way.

They've ripped me apart for being honest when their ringleader and 98% of the other bigmouths won't even come out and lay their training history on the line for scrutiny.

They've barely got me warmed up!

I'm baaack!

I wanted to reply to akja's comment above -

Once you posted your training, with dates and such, I felt there was no longer a really valid issue in haranguing you any further. You have a good amount of training under your belt, supervised by instructors. The only thing I take any exception to is still the whole ranking from outside your system thing. It has been shown here and elsewhere that a lot of the big names in the past had the same thing done to/for them. Some of them used it to validate what they did, most appear not to have given a damn.

If you feel you have enough information to start teaching something, so be it. You admitted that the real test of whether you know/knew what you are/were talking about is time, so in 25 years we'll see if anybody is still practicing what you taught them.

Yiliquan turns 21 this year. We have made it that far, and we are still growing and evolving (though it is likely we are nearing the end of the evolution phase). I hope your Kempo Jujutsu lasts as long.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by akja


All that aside I'm just being me I'm real good at being a big mouth

So we have noticed.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Not yet.

What about JKD?