Paradox

[Kung Fu Wang]

If we look at the following 2 clips, we can clearly see "paradox" here.

In the 1st clip Chiba grabs on his opponent's wrist and Chiba can manipulate his opponent nicely.

In this 2nd clip, Liu's opponent grabs on Liu's wrist and Liu can also manipulate his opponent nicely.

What should happen when Chiba's hands grab on Liu's wrists? Who will control whom? What's your opinion on this?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

It's not really a paradox. The deciding factor is not who is grabbing whose wrists, but who is properly controlling balance and body alignment.

Both instructors are working with compliant partners who allow them to set up the body alignment exactly the way they want to. Things would look very different with a skilled and non-compliant opponent.

In a non-compliant scenario, it's generally better to be the person who has the grip, for a couple of reasons.

 

[Tez3]

I got quite excited there for a minute, I saw 'Chiba' and thought Yay! Sonny Chiba, oh well.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The deciding factor is not who is grabbing whose wrists, but who is properly controlling balance and body alignment.

What prevent Liu's opponent from releasing that grip?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

What prevent Liu's opponent from releasing that grip?

Nothing whatsoever. That's part of what marks it as a compliant demo. In a real fight, the grabber could adjust his body alignment, adjust his grip, or even let go as necessary. That's one of the reasons that I said it's better to be the person with the grip in a real situation.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That's part of what marks it as a compliant demo.

That's how I feel too. Liu's opponent is more "compliant" than Chiba's opponent.

 

[K-man]

I agree that there is no paradox but that's about it. What is being demonstrated are different techniques for totally different reaons. Chiba is demonstrating two techniques. The first is nikyo. As with all techniques in Aikido they are not as simple as they look. Chiba's partner is compliant in that he has allowed Chiba to capture his wrist. In the real world you work with what you are given. Beyond that the partner is not being compliant. He is moving to keep away from the pain. Again, in the real world you aren't going to give him that opportunity. He is taken straight to the ground where you have either a restraint or limb destruction. He does a second technique as well, kote gaeshi. Again the only compliance is allowing the twist to be captured. Without atemi it is a difficult technique to perform but in this situation Chiba had slowed it to allow his partner to roll. In real life this doesn't happen. Done properly the second technique does not involve pain. It takes your opponent to the ground where you have the option of applying many other techniques. I teach both those techniques to my Krav and karate guys. The second is my 'go to' as a knife defence or in grappling. The first one is also part and parcel of the Krav 360 defence against a weapon.

Now the second clip is totally different. It is demonstrating Liu's understanding of Chi. Of course his partner could let go but that is not the point of the exercise. What it is demonstrating is his ability to move effortlessly despite being held. A martial application of it is when you have a weapon and your opponent is trying to control it. If you opponent let's go he dies, so there is incentive to hold on. It is part of sword training in Aikido.

As to whether it's better to grip or be gripped. I'll take being gripped every time. You can't release a grip and move quickly because gripping locks up the whole body and with training you can escape grips with no effort. Better to control a limb without gripping except if a weapon is involved which changes the dynamic.

Now the question on everyone's lips. If, Ciba grabbed Liu's wrist. Hmm! Two guys evenly matched. I would probably go for Liu as I suspect he may have the better understanding of Chi/Ki, but it's a line ball.

Nice thread.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Chiba's partner is compliant in that he has allowed Chiba to capture his wrist. In the real world you work with what you are given. Beyond that the partner is not being compliant.

Chiba's uke is also being compliant in allowing Chiba to break his balance and his body alignment at the outset. I'll agree that once all that has occurred that uke has no choice but to go where he is being steered.

As to whether it's better to grip or be gripped. I'll take being gripped every time. You can't release a grip and move quickly because gripping locks up the whole body and with training you can escape grips with no effort.

I'll have to disagree on that one. In my experience, a good grappler can release or change his grips a lot more easily than most trained people can escape them.

 

[drop bear]

Tyrannosaurus arms.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

a good grappler can release or change his grips a lot more easily than most trained people can escape them.

This the beauty of the grip. When your opponent tries to break your grip, you already move in. Your grip is just "temporary to tuck your opponent's arm away so his arm won't be in your entering path".

You can't release a grip and move quickly because gripping locks up the whole body ...

I don't understand why you may say this. Here is an example that with a single grip, you can release it in fast speed.

Even if you may use both hands to grab on your opponent's arms, you can still release both grips fast.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You can't release a grip and move quickly because gripping locks up the whole body and with training you can escape grips with no effort.

I don't see much problem when Brendan Lai applied his grip.

 

[K-man]

This the beauty of the grip. When your opponent tries to break your grip, you already move in. Your grip is just "temporary to tuck your opponent's arm away so his arm won't be in your entering path".


I don't understand why you may say this. Here is an example that with a single grip, you can release it in fast speed.

I wouldn't class that as fast, but regardless of that what I am talking about is being grabbed by my wrist to contain or restrain me. It is totally different to me grabbing someone's wrist for whatever reason and letting go. If I have hold of someone's wrist to control them and I decide to let go and strike I can. It is not as fast as if I was controlling by hooking but it is normally fast enough to get a strike in before the person I was holding can react. That is because I am making the move and his reaction time is greater than the time it takes me to let go and strike.

If, on the other hand, someone is holding me, I can normally release my hand from his grip and strike before he can react. The problem from his side is twofold. Firstly, I am making the move and again, he is reacting. Secondly, because he is holding tightly his body is locked up to provide the strength to hold firmly. By the time he is able to move freely he has been hit.

Even if you may use both hands to grab on your opponent's arms, you can still release both grips fast.

Yes you can, but again it is your decision when you release. If I am being held and I escape before you let go, you will be hit before you can react to the escape.

I don't see much problem when Brendan Lai applied his grip.

And again, he is controlling the situation. He is not holding to restrain. He is holding the arm to move it. I would suggest that controlling without grabbing would be better but there are times when we do grab, especially if a weapon is involved.

We train against grabs every session so it is a big part of our training. It is why Aikidoka practise so many techniques from the wrist grab. Escaping the hold becomes instinctive and we do train train them against guys holding with all their strength.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

but there are times when we do grab, especially if a weapon is involved.

I think we are talking about two different kind of wrist grab here. The one that you are talking about is a "hard grab". The one that I'm talking about is a "light grab" that you use it for:

- distraction,
- set up for something else,
- tuck your opponent's arm away from your moving path,
- part of your entering strategy - you just want to pass his "wrist gate", "elbow gate" and reach to his "shoulder gate".

Since the goal are different, the amount of force commitment may be different.

 

[K-man]

I think we are talking about two different kind of wrist grab here. The one that you are talking about is a "hard grab". The one that I'm talking about is a "light grab" that you use it for:

- distraction,
- set up for something else,
- tuck your opponent's arm away from your moving path,
- part of your entering strategy - you just want to pass his "wrist gate", "elbow gate" and reach to his "shoulder gate".

Since the goal are different, the amount of force commitment may be different.

I understand where you are coming from but I think you might have missed my original reference in reply to Tony's comment.

As to whether it's better to grip or be gripped. I'll take being gripped every time. You can't release a grip and move quickly because gripping locks up the whole body and with training you can escape grips with no effort. Better to control a limb without gripping except if a weapon is involved which changes the dynamic.

I was referring to being held where my opponent is committed to trying to hold me.

 

[Chris Parker]

If we look at the following 2 clips, we can clearly see "paradox" here.

In the 1st clip Chiba grabs on his opponent's wrist and Chiba can manipulate his opponent nicely.

In this 2nd clip, Liu's opponent grabs on Liu's wrist and Liu can also manipulate his opponent nicely.

What should happen when Chiba's hands grab on Liu's wrists? Who will control whom? What's your opinion on this?

Here's the problem with your entire take on martial arts, John… you seem to think in terms of direct causation always applying ("if he does this, I do that, and this is the result"), with the inference that there is no possible alternative result. And that, simply, is completely out of whack with reality.

This is not a paradox… it's a question of who can apply their tactic/skill more effectively in the moment that they come together… which is a very different question, and has an answer that can change each time the question is posed. Think of sporting teams… do they always have the same result each time they face each other? Sure, one might win more than the other, but it's not a matter of one only scoring, and the other not being able to… each moment gives it's own variables to the situation. In other words, there is no answer to the question, as it's not grounded in any form of reality.

 

[drop bear]

If we look at the following 2 clips, we can clearly see "paradox" here.

In the 1st clip Chiba grabs on his opponent's wrist and Chiba can manipulate his opponent nicely.

In this 2nd clip, Liu's opponent grabs on Liu's wrist and Liu can also manipulate his opponent nicely.

What should happen when Chiba's hands grab on Liu's wrists? Who will control whom? What's your opinion on this?

the guy being controlled is reaching. It does not matter if you grab someone if you don't have any control of them.

Hence tyrannosaurus arms give you more control.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I was referring to being held where my opponent is committed to trying to hold me.

Yeah, but a skilled grappler doesn't just grab your wrist and "commit to trying to hold you." He's grabbing for a purpose - to arm drag you, to throw you, to clear your arms out of the way of a shot, to pull you off balance, to set up another grip, to set up a punch, whatever. The grab only lasts long enough to accomplish that purpose.

 

[K-man]

Yeah, but a skilled grappler doesn't just grab your wrist and "commit to trying to hold you." He's grabbing for a purpose - to arm drag you, to throw you, to clear your arms out of the way of a shot, to pull you off balance, to set up another grip, to set up a punch, whatever. The grab only lasts long enough to accomplish that purpose.

No training I do is designed to compete with a skilled grappler. If the grab only lasts long enough to proceed to another technique then in real terms you are not bring held. Less skilled people often grab hold to try to protect themselves or to restrain you while they try to punch you.