Karate's Push Hands

[isshinryuronin4 4]

Karate has its own version of "push hands." I'm branching off from a current thread on kung fu's expression of it to address it from the Okinawan viewpoint. Kakie is what it's called in Okinawa and has likely been around as long as the art itself. As the fundamentals and goals are very much the same it seems to be one of the Chinese methods brought back to Okinawa by the early masters, especially from the Naha branch. Found now only in the most traditional schools, it is still passed on.

I think (based on the youtube clips I've seen) one of the differences between the Okinawan and Chinese versions is that the latter's endgame is actual pushing or otherwise gaining control of the opponent's body/weight, whereas the Okinawan version primarily results in a grab and/or strike using the contact as a springboard to launch the attack at a favorable time/position. The Chinese way deals mostly with the body, the Okinawan way stressing the arms. Another possible difference is that kakie is less of an internal exercise and leads to more of an external practical application. I may be wrong in this analysis so feel free to address this.

Kakie's cousin is muchimi, or sticky hands, the main difference being muchimi is applied with a heavier feeling and more pressure on the arms, proactively jamming and manipulating them. This method can also develop a strong structure a la sanchin kata.

I'd be interested in how the CMA guys out there feel about these distinctions.

 

[Xue Sheng107 24]

Taijiquan push hands drills is what I believe you are comparing this to. Taiji push hands , done free style, at least in my experience , deals with body, qinna, and shuaijiao. Also from a CMA perspective, the body is a fist. I can hit you with any part if it.

However there are other CMA styles that do push hands, i will only speak to the other 3 i have been exposed to.
Yiquan/dachengquan, and Xingyiquan also have push hands, this is where you see what you get in taijiquan, but also get an emphasis on striking in a sense i think you are talking about . You will get striking in taijiquan as well, but the Xingyi/Yiquan approach, IMO, is a bit more violent

Also, wing chun Chi Sau is a form os push hands IMO. It puts a large emphasis on striking

 

[windwalker099114 145]

Not a fan of how push hands is commonly practiced, but understand why this is so. It’s a friendly way to engage in a controlled setting that most are familiar with.

I think (based on the youtube clips I've seen) one of the differences between the Okinawan and Chinese versions is that the latter's endgame is actual pushing or otherwise gaining control of the opponent's body/weight, whereas the Okinawan version primarily results in a grab and/or strike using the contact as a springboard to launch the attack at a favorable time/position. The Chinese way deals mostly with the body, the Okinawan way stressing the arms. Another possible difference is that kakie is less of an internal exercise and leads to more of an external practical application. I may be wrong in this analysis so feel free to address this.

It really depends on the Taiji line being compared and what it’s training.

The idea that Taiji is mainly about pushing or controlling the body, while something like Kakie leads to striking, is a bit misleading. Those are outcomes — not the method itself. Depending on the line, Taiji can lead to striking, control, or displacement.

It’s also not really body vs arms. Contact may be through the arms, but what’s being worked is how the whole body connects and responds through that contact.

Much of what you described — especially the heavier pressure or jamming — wouldn’t be compatible with the methods I’ve encountered. The focus isn’t on engaging or overpowering structure, but on sensing and following the paths of jin (劲).

The contact is before, during, and after — not just at the point of touch.

If you’re dealing with structure as something solid, then 听劲 (tīng jìn) isn’t there yet. By then, any reaction is already too late.

 

[windwalker099114 145]

Another possible difference is that kakie is less of an internal exercise and leads to more of an external practical application. I may be wrong in this analysis so feel free to address this.

I think that “internal vs external” distinction is a bit misleading

What you’re describing in Kakie — pressure, jamming, setting up strikes — is really a difference in training emphasis, not a different category of skill. Internal work doesn’t exclude practical application; it just approaches it differently.

In the Taiji methods I’ve encountered, the focus is on developing 听劲 (tīng jìn) — sensing and following change — so that application (striking, controlling, or uprooting) comes out of that, rather than being imposed