Next move from standing collar grip.

[oftheherd1]

If your opponent wants to be close to you, you should help him to be closer to you more than he really wants to.
...

- Slide your collar grip arm into a head lock, and
- "Slant cut" his leading leg.

The danger is that with adrenalin up, the opponent may pull you to the ground. Not to worry, shift weight to your plant foot and raise your other foot as you follow him down. Try to time it so that your non-plant-foot knee strikes his floating ribs about the time he hits the ground. The floating ribs will continue to float, but very painfully.

 

[Instructor]

Hapkido has dozens of responses to a lapel grab and an attempted hip throw.

Snake Hole is when you shoot a hand over one of ukes arms and under the other then use one as the fulcrum to pry the other free. It transitions easily into an arm bar.

 

[oftheherd1]

Hapkido has dozens of responses to a lapel grab and an attempted hip throw.

Snake Hole is when you shoot a hand over one of ukes arms and under the other then use one as the fulcrum to pry the other free. It transitions easily into an arm bar.

Yes, I remember that one. We just didn't call it that.

 

[jezr74]

Will give these some work, thanks for the replies.

We often start a round in this position, is nice to have some options.

 

[Tez3]

I just lay back, wait for him to provide tension, and use that for stability to jump up, and wrap my legs, around his head.

We had a fighter who could do things like that, we hated him

 

[AlphaBJJ]

As others have stated, also grabbing lapels might not be your best option. However, if grappling is allowed (and why would't a jits guy think that you've got some options. Might be time to go for a guard pull (yes, I know, you'll even get debate over this in jits circles). Not a jump, or hop, just a pull. However, I'd rather have at least a cuff control for this as well.

 

[drop bear]

As others have stated, also grabbing lapels might not be your best option. However, if grappling is allowed (and why would't a jits guy think that you've got some options. Might be time to go for a guard pull (yes, I know, you'll even get debate over this in jits circles). Not a jump, or hop, just a pull. However, I'd rather have at least a cuff control for this as well.

We have a very strict no butt flop rule

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Already in position standing holding each others dobak collar at the front with both hands.

Whats your next move?

This can be a nice strategy to play.

- tear apart your opponent's 1st grip,
- tear apart his 2nd grip,
- while he tries to regain his grip back, attack him with "single leg".

 

[Spinedoc]

Nikyo works quite well in this situation too….just saying…...

 

[Chris Parker]

Already in position standing holding each others dobak collar at the front with both hands.

Whats your next move?

No idea. Honestly, this reads like "You're behind the wheel of your car, driving down the road… what's your next move?" It depends… where am I wanting to go? Am I leaving somewhere, or arriving? Is it a backstreet or a highway?

You're both holding the others dobak?
My next move would be to wonder what the hell I was doing getting involved in a monkey dance, and in such a foolish way.

Foolish? Really? Hmm…

After that... it depends on the exact body positions, sizes, strengths, reason for the conflict, and how threatened I feel.
I might kick. I might punch. I might choke. I might throw. I might do a release. I might turn loose with one hand, draw my gun, and shoot them.

I might suggest that the mention of a dobak indicates that perhaps a gun isn't required…

You'll have to tell me what a sacrifice throw is.

A "sacrifice throw" is a throw achieved by "sacrificing" your own upright mobility… in other words, one that involves throwing the opponent by dropping yourself to the ground first, and allowing the bodyweight to pull them down.

This is one example, possibly the most commonly known.

Also called a monkey flip.

And in Judo (and other arts), it's called tomoe nage.

First I am with Dirty Dog. Why would I grab their collars as well?

Could be any of a number of reasons… far from least being a sense of physical and psychological control… as well as being instinctive, and, well, good tactics.

As any grappler knows, that is because there are too many counters.

So… you're saying that judoka aren't grapplers?

I might grab both his hands, violently twist them outside to the palms being upwards, and hold his hands tight to my chest as I step way back with one foot, spraining or breaking his wrists. I can then strike or kick as I wish.

Er… okay…

Since I have no desire to grab his lapels, if he tries to hip throw me I have several devastating moves, from a simple strike upwards into the xiphoid process as I step forward with his turn (careful, it can be a death blow), or a strike to his kidney, forcing him on his face, as I place my knee into his, then grab his ankle and hyper-extend his knee as I fall forward and strike any handy place on his back with my opposite elbow. Or, I could step with his turn and place my hand around his neck, continue my step into a spin as I drop by bending my knee and throw his neck and head as far as I can. His body will follow.

I'm less convinced of the practicalities and realism of these ideas, honestly… of course, I might be misreading them… is there anything you can show to clarify what you're saying?

 

[K-man]

This is one example, possibly the most commonly known.

I'm less convinced of the practicalities and realism of these ideas, honestly… of course, I might be misreading them… is there anything you can show to clarify what you're saying?

Yeah, well, a sacrifice throw was just an option. Not really something for me ... but for a young agile man like yourself ...

 

[Chris Parker]

Ah, mate, I was only commenting on OfTheHerd's ideas there…

 

[oftheherd1]

↑
As any grappler knows, that is because there are too many counters.
So… you're saying that judoka aren't grapplers?

↑
I might grab both his hands, violently twist them outside to the palms being upwards, and hold his hands tight to my chest as I step way back with one foot, spraining or breaking his wrists. I can then strike or kick as I wish.
Er… okay…

↑
Since I have no desire to grab his lapels, if he tries to hip throw me I have several devastating moves, from a simple strike upwards into the xiphoid process as I step forward with his turn (careful, it can be a death blow), or a strike to his kidney, forcing him on his face, as I place my knee into his, then grab his ankle and hyper-extend his knee as I fall forward and strike any handy place on his back with my opposite elbow. Or, I could step with his turn and place my hand around his neck, continue my step into a spin as I drop by bending my knee and throw his neck and head as far as I can. His body will follow.
I'm less convinced of the practicalities and realism of these ideas, honestly… of course, I might be misreading them… is there anything you can show to clarify what you're saying?

I didn't say judoka were or were not grapples; I didn't even mention them. But it has always been my understanding that they are grapplers, so I would include them. If judoka don't know any other the things I mentioned, I would guess they aren't taught in the Judo techniques or the judoka hasn't gotten to that point in the Judo journey.

I suppose "Er...okay..." means you don't agree or think it an ineffectual move?

Being less convinced of the practicalities and realism isn't something I need concern myself with. I have been taught them and understand their value. I know you are an experienced MA, much more than I. But even so, I know what I have learned, and its value. Your disbelief doesn't convince me otherwise.

If we were to be at the same place and time some day, I would be happy to demonstrate and teach them to you. You could then decide if you still think the techniques are of value or not. If you know any Hapkido teachers or students where you are, they might also be able to show you so you could decide if you can make those techniques work. As I would suppose you know, it is often difficult to describe a technique as opposed to demonstrating it. That is why many here at MT don't think reading from books or using CDs, is an OK only step towards learning an MA.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Already in position standing holding each others dobak collar at the front with both hands.

Whats your next move?

I need more context than this. What's going on? Is this a sport grappling match? A serious fight? A heated social confrontation about to turn physical?

In general, it's not a likely scenario where I'm concerned. Any time I've ever seen it happen, it's generally two untrained idiots with too much testosterone trying to push each other around.

In a serious self-defense situation if someone grabs my collars I've got a host of options - striking while both his hands are tied up, breaking his grips, using his grips to set up a lock or throw, or some combination of all of the above. Counter-grabbing his collar is not on the list.

In a sport grappling scenario it's not super common either. Perhaps I got a double-lapel grip in preparation for a throw and he counter grabbed my lapels. If I have the inside grips, then I still have the advantage and may still be able to get the throw. If not, then I may either switch to sleeve and collar grip or else work to strip his grips and establish dominant grips of my own before proceeding.

In a social setting that hasn't yet escalated into a full fledged fight yet (drunk uncle getting belligerent at the family picnic, etc) if someone grabs me with the double collar grip I would take non-threatening counter grips that protect me from sudden attacks (head butts, punches, etc) and work on calming the other person down. If the de-escalation doesn't work, I'm in a good position to counter whatever he throws at me.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I need more context than this. What's going on? Is this a sport grappling match? A serious fight? A heated social confrontation about to turn physical?

I have the same concern as well, I prefer to control my opponent's arms instead. This way his arms won't be free to punch me. IMO, even if you train in Gi situation, you should still think about no-Gi situation. The

- arm wrap,
- overt hook
- under hook,
- mantis arm (hands on top of your opponent's elbow joints),
- ...

are always better than the collar grip.