Standing wristlocks

[Tony Dismukes]

Just a little theory regarding standing wristlocks that I haven't seen expressed by too many people.

Standing wristlocks are widely denigrated among a certain segment of martial artists. They don't seem to work in MMA*. They don't seem to work reliably in live sparring against a skilled opponent, regardless of the rules.** The natural conclusion for many seems to be that these are moves which rely on a compliant uke feeding just the right kind of energy. If not that, perhaps they depend on a practitioner having a ridiculously high skill level compared to the opponent.

On the other hand, I've spoken to police officers, correctional officers, and bouncers who have used standing wristlocks effectively in real situations. One of the COs ( a friend of mine) isn't even a trained martial artist. What's going on? If my non-martial artist friend can make a move work on a violent inmate, why can't an aikido master pull off the same move against a low-level amateur MMA fighter?

To find the answer to that, let's back up and ask another question. What's the one technique which wins more street fights than any other move, but is never seen in the MMA cage or in normal sparring?

Answer - the sucker punch. You want to win a street fight? Hit someone while their attention is elsewhere or while they're posturing and woofing, building up to a fight but not fully committed to swinging yet. You don't have that opportunity in a MMA fight, but it's common in the real world.

My thesis is that standing joint locks are the grapplers equivalent of the sucker punch. You don't use them against an opponent who is in a fighting stance throwing jabs and crosses at you. You apply them against someone who grabs or shoves you as intimidation before making up his mind to really stop punches. You apply them on an unruly inmate/suspect/patron who is occupied arguing or wrestling with one of your fellow CO/LEO/bouncers while you come up from the side. You apply them to someone who is trying to resist being moved somewhere but isn't necessarily swinging at you yet. You apply them to someone who either isn't fully focused on you or who isn't yet in 100% fight mode - just like a sucker punch.

If you accept this idea, then the next question is, why bother? If you have the opportunity for a free shot, why not use it to just punch the guy or tackle him to the ground? I'd suggest that there are times when having the option for controlling someone without striking them or going to the ground is a good thing - especially for the professions I mentioned above.

Disclaimer - I have spent quite a few years practicing standing wristlocks, but have never used one in a real fight. This is just based on my conversations with people who have used them in real life. I welcome feedback from LEOs or anyone else who has real world experience with this class of technique.


*(I've seen a couple of broken arms in MMA from standing armlocks, but no standing wristlocks.)

**(There is one kind of standing wristlock that has been used effectively by a few competitors in BJJ against an opponent who has a lapel grip. You have to apply it quickly, so it tends to result in broken wrists before people can tap. I'm not aware of any form of sparring or competition that includes strikes where standing wristlocks are commonly seen.)

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Whenever I have applied any form of 'come along' hold (to include wristlocks) on non-compliant people, they were impaired in some manner, generally by alcohol. Their reflexes, timing, and judgment were almost always impaired to some extent, as well as their ability to resist arrest. Their reach may have exceeded their grasp, but it did not exceed a shiny set of Peerless hand irons.

 

[Andrew Green]

I could see someone pulling off a kote gaeshi, on someone in sparring if it wasn't expected. Trouble is it would be rather dangerous to train and likely lead to a fair number of ER visits, as would most joint attacks being used as a takedown.

But anyways, I think people get there ideas of "self-defence" all buggered up and think it's only one thing.

There is a difference between a one-on-one street fight and someone being a drunk idiot and using a little physical restraint. There is a difference between those and a armed police officer or security guard restraining someone that isn't so much fighting as resisting arrest. Both those are very different then an armed attacker trying to do serious damage and different still from a group attacking a individual.

Different things are going to work in different situations.

Sometimes I think it is easy to get caught up in the sport fighting mindset. It is a very effective testing ground, we know with pretty good certainty what works and what doesn't in that environment, we test it every day against full resistance. We got high level competition footage showing it in action. We know it works because we see it working.

It gets a little fuzzier with the things we can't train with full resistance, and to be fair some things aren't meant to be used against someone resisting 100%. Some things are meant to work on a drunk that needs removed from a location, some are designed to restrain a person that isn't even fighting you but needs to be controlled. Sometimes it just needs a step above a firm voice to assert control.

What I do think is good is to preparation in case things escalate. If that come along fails and it turns into a fight it would be good to be ready. But the things outside of sport rules, like escorting a person out a door while useful to some will never find their way into sport rules.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Used standing wrist locks in my days in security and they worked for me, but then, as stated by Tony, they were not throwing punches when I applied them

 

[drop bear]

Having two people going for the wristlock makes a difference.

Being stronger than the other guy makes a difference.

Otherwise learn to apply them from a dominant clinch. Because then they are less able to hit you.

The wrist lock for me, worked about as well as just securing the arm.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Used standing wrist locks in my days in security and they worked for me, but then, as stated by Tony, they were not throwing punches when I applied them

It's not to say that some of the Marines I applied wrist locks to didn't TRY to punch me, but they were persuaded that this was not the wisest choice of action.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You don't use them against an opponent who is in a fighting stance throwing jabs and crosses at you.

This is just based on my experience of being able to use a wrist lock to deal with punches.

My understanding is that when dealing with punches, one has to first deal with the punch before applying the wrist lock.

There is one kind of standing wristlock that has been used effectively by a few competitors in BJJ against an opponent who has a lapel grip. You have to apply it quickly, so it tends to result in broken wrists before people can tap. I'm not aware of any form of sparring or competition that includes strikes where standing wristlocks are commonly seen.

Breaking the wrist is the real purpose of a wrist lock. The control comes after the wrist is broken. This is why Chin Na. joint locks are dangerous because they were meant to be done quickly and cause damage. This is also why you never see a demo of Chin Na techniques done at full speed or resistance. When I practice Chin Na with students I always tell them don't resist because that resistance may cause more damage when I start manipulating that joint. At least if they aren't resisting, then I can go slow enough without worrying that I may accidentally move faster than my ability to control and break their wrist.

Wrist locks are also like punches, you don't want your opponent to know it's coming until it's already there. From a kung fu perspective, I should never know that you are trying to lock my joint until it's too late.

 

[MAfreak]

quite difficult to catch punching hands. thats what i wrote in about every third post here in the forums and no one wanted to know about that. but it totally works if someone does grappling too, which also can happen to officers and bouncers.

i personally got taken down by a standing wristlock in a soft sparring match (so unscripted) against a ju jutsu guy (but we did more submission grappling, than punching there).
and i personally used a standing wristlock in a "real" situation, when an old man grabbed an arm of his wife and punched her in the face with his other hand. i didn't want to beat up that old guy, even if he deserved it, so i used a "figure four" wristlock to make him let go of his wife.

so i say it is possible and effective, as long as the wrist you want to lock, doesn't move all the time like in fistfights.

 

[WaterGal]

I really can't "like" this enough. Definitely, different techniques are useful for different situations. Not all situations call for punching someone in the head. If, for example, I'm out at a bar and some guy tries to cop a feel, I could punch him, but a wrist lock on the offending hand will probably both be more likely to make him let go and less likely to result in him trying to hit me back.

 

[JowGaWolf]

quite difficult to catch punching hands. thats what i wrote in about every third post here in the forums and no one wanted to know about that. but it totally works if someone does grappling too, which also can happen to officers and bouncers.

i personally got taken down by a standing wristlock in a soft sparring match (so unscripted) against a ju jutsu guy (but we did more submission grappling, than punching there).
and i personally used a standing wristlock in a "real" situation, when an old man grabbed an arm of his wife and punched her in the face with his other hand. i didn't want to beat up that old guy, even if he deserved it, so i used a "figure four" wristlock to make him let his wife go.

so i say it is possible and effective, as long as the wrist you want to lock, doesn't move all the time like in fistfights.

yeah just don't try to do one on a 1-2 combination punch. lol. The fights that I've been in were usually trying to throw power punches and I like those because I can usually get someone to overextend. It's the fast jabs that come in series like you state that I don't bother trying to locking. Sort of like everything else, there's a right time and a wrong time to apply a wrist lock. Like the first guy in the video. Wrist lock isn't going to be the best option. For stuff like that my plan would be to use my elbows to break his hands.

 

[Hanzou]

I think it's important to note WHY wrist locks work so well for law enforcement and security personnel; Those people are authority figures and typically when they restrain you, you tend to comply, also police will cuff, mace, taze, or shoot someone before applying a wrist lock. Also more than one cop can be involved. I've seen cops apply wrist locks while the assailant was cuffed with another cop putting his knee on the perp's neck.

Wrist locks also work fine for bouncers because they tend to be pretty big guys, and can restrain smaller people with relative ease. If a bigger guy gets out of line, more than one bouncer will restrain him.

The type of wrist locks people tend to question are those Aikido, Hapkido, and Kung Fu wrist locks that are "magically" applied by small men or women as a huge person throws a punch at them.

As for sucker punches and MMA, people do get one punch KO'd.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I think it's important to note WHY wrist locks work so well for law enforcement and security personnel; Those people are authority figures and typically when they restrain you, you tend to comply, also police will cuff, mace, taze, or shoot someone before applying a wrist lock. Also more than one cop can be involved. I've seen cops apply wrist locks while the assailant was cuffed with another cop putting his knee on the perp's neck.

Wrist locks also work fine for bouncers because they tend to be pretty big guys, and can restrain smaller people with relative ease. If a bigger guy gets out of line, more than one bouncer will restrain him.

The type of wrist locks people tend to question are those Aikido, Hapkido, and Kung Fu wrist locks that are "magically" applied by small men or women as a huge person throws a punch at them.

As for sucker punches and MMA, people do get one punch KO'd.

Ever had to deal with a bleeding heroin addict without a Taser, cuffs, mace or a gun. Ever had to deal with a person brought in on a mental heath warrant without Taser, cuffs, mace or a gun...I have...wrist locks worked when needed then...I think it is important to note that you are likely talking from lack of experience... again.

 

[Hanzou]

Ever had to deal with a bleeding heroin addict without a Taser, cuffs, mace or a gun. Ever had to deal with a person brought in on a mental heath warrant without Taser, cuffs, mace or a gun...I have...wrist locks worked when needed then...I think it is important to note that you are likely talking from lack of experience... again.

Where did I say that wrist locks don't work as a restraint? I said that where the effectiveness of wrist locks is questioned is from demos of people catching strikes (possibly throwing them from that caught strike) and immediately applying a wrist lock.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When you lock on your opponent wrist, he can raise his elbow to release your pressure. The elbow lock and shoulder lock are much better.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

As for sucker punches and MMA, people do get one punch KO'd.

A one-punch KO in the ring or cage is not a sucker punch. Both parties are focused on their opponent and aware that they are in a fight.

 

[Hanzou]

A one-punch KO in the ring or cage is not a sucker punch. Both parties are focused on their opponent and aware that they are in a fight.

Fair enough.

 

[Andrew Green]

When you lock on your opponent wrist, he can raise his elbow to release your pressure. The elbow lock and shoulder lock are much better.

I don't think you've ever been properly wrist locked to be perfectly honest...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don't think you've ever been properly wrist locked to be perfectly honest...

If you know the 3 separate directions of the wrist lock,

- vertical,
- horizontal,
- pull,

you will know what I'm talking about.

 

[hoshin1600]

Joint locks work just fine. The problem is that many people keep trying to use a screwdriver as a hammer.
Joint minipulation work well when used as they were intended within the context they were intended.
It's less about a "sucker punch" and more about appropriate context.

 

[Langenschwert]

Well, the problem with wrist locks is that the point of breaking the wrist is past the point of some folks' pain compliance threshold. If you have to use one "for real", then you might break the wrist before the bad guy thinks about saying uncle. But I suppose, that's a "him" problem and not a "you" problem.

However, they certainly work in context. In my albeit limited experience, there are some people who are just plain good at wrist locks, just like some people have a wickedly fast jab, and some people have a really good power double. If you're good at wrist locks, awesome. One of the guys in my club is just fantastic at them. I'm not that guy.