To cheese or not to cheese

[skribs]

In gaming, "cheese" is a tactic which avoids most gameplay elements for an attempt at an easy win. For example, in the real-time strategy game Starcraft, I like to make my committed attack so early in the game, that it doesn't matter that I don't know how to scout my opponent, build up a large infrastructure, control high-tech units, or multitask an army to attack and defend multiple objectives. I just attack 3-4 minutes in the game with a small handful of army, and hope it's a bigger handful than my opponent has.

I think I've run into a similar thing in BJJ, in the form of collar chokes (specifically the punch choke and cross-collar choke). Against the other white belts, I've found these to be very easy to apply compared to the other techniques we've learned. I can do them from guard, so I avoid having to learn sweeps, escapes, and advancing position. In fact, I've gotten them from full guard, half guard, and open guard, so it doesn't really seem to matter if I'm maintaining guard. Compared to other submissions I've learned from guard (triangle choke, armbar, omoplata, kimura), there is very little setup required. For example, with the armbar, we have to isolate the arm, then turn our body and get both legs near the shoulder in order to apply it. The punch choke I need to set one grip and place the other hand.

While this is certainly an advantage in winning, it also seems to be a disadvantage in development. And it doesn't work in no-gi. (I know punch chokes can be used in no-gi, but they appear much more difficult).

So this is my conundrum - do I want to focus on making these chokes my game plan? Or do I want to avoid using them so I can develop all of the other skills? Or how do I want to balance it out? I could do collar chokes in gi and try to actually play the game in no-gi. I could do collar chokes on Mondays, or even weeks, or against specific opponents. I could do the fundamentals in positional rolling and go for collar chokes in free rolling. Or I could go for the other stuff and use collar chokes as my last resort.

I get that rolling is about improving and not necessarily about winning. But if I have something I'm good at, it makes sense to highlight it.

 

[wab25]

To be fair... you have not been rolling for that long yet. You found something that works for you, with the current set of students that you roll with. It will only last so long.... soon they will find ways to escape, defend, reverse and counter your technique. Now there are two paths to consider.... either you are really good at this move, or they are really bad at defending it. Until you roll will people outside your normal set... you won't really know. When you go against someone of similar level as you from another school either you will slap this on them really fast (you are good at it) or you won't be able to even come close to using it (your rolling partners are bad at defending it).

Either way, keep using it. You will be allowing your classmates the chance to learn to deal with that attack. As they get better, you will have to up your game with this technique, to keep getting it. Both you and they grow together. When you roll with other schools, you will get to see how well you are doing in your progression with this technique.

If your school is any good... soon these people you keep choking out will get better at defending and soon you will not be able to cheese them with it. You will be forced to move onto other techniques, as they should be able to defend this one. As you get better at the other techniques... new openings for this technique will appear. As they get more worried about you using this technique, opening for other moves will appear.

If you want to force the issue... apply your cheese, then when they are close to tapping, let it off, and practice transitioning to another technique. You know whether they escaped or whether you let them out to practice the transition to the next submission. As long as you are honest with yourself here... you can start learning your submission chains, while they are learning to escape the first one. Hopefully, you will be ready, when they escape the first.

Give it time.... this will sort itself out.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I like the Starcraft Rush.
The Zerg were famous for this in the single player.

 

[drop bear]

Theoretically you are supposed to do the move you learned that day. But I am basically too dumb for that and generally wait untill I find a move I kind of like and spend a few months on that.

Which at the moment is berimbolos. Which is getting me passed and loosing position. Which means I am fighting from all sorts of interesting positions. Rather than just the ones I am comfortable with.

I am very much about rolling is about creating dilemmas for me to fix rather that racking up submissions. Especially as there is no real downside to making a mistake. If I get subbed. I get subbed. (But I train with trustworthy guys)

Rather than say striking where I am not willing to get pounded in the head for no good reason and stay a bit conservative.

 

[Jimmythebull]

gaming, "cheese" is a tactic which avoids most gameplay elements for an attempt at an easy win. For example, in the real-time strategy game Starcraft, I like to make my committed attack so early in the game, that it doesn't matter that I don't know how to scout my opponent, build up a large infrastructure, control high-tech units, or multitask an army to attack and defend multiple objectives. I just attack 3-4 minutes in the game with a small handful of army, and hope it's a bigger handful than my opponent has.

What the hell are you talking about??

 

[skribs]

What the hell are you talking about??

In that paragraph, I'm explaining what "cheese" is in this context.

In the rest of the thread, I relate that to BJJ.

 

[Jimmythebull]

In that paragraph, I'm explaining what "cheese" is in this context.

In the rest of the thread, I relate that to BJJ.

thought it was some video game (is it?) ..not sure what that´s got to do with real life.

 

[skribs]

Theoretically you are supposed to do the move you learned that day. But I am basically too dumb for that and generally wait untill I find a move I kind of like and spend a few months on that.

Which at the moment is berimbolos. Which is getting me passed and loosing position. Which means I am fighting from all sorts of interesting positions. Rather than just the ones I am comfortable with.

I am very much about rolling is about creating dilemmas for me to fix rather that racking up submissions. Especially as there is no real downside to making a mistake. If I get subbed. I get subbed. (But I train with trustworthy guys)

Rather than say striking where I am not willing to get pounded in the head for no good reason and stay a bit conservative.

And that's going to happen anyway (getting into bad positions). Alternatively, I'm trying to do today's move, but my opponent is never in the right position for me to even attempt it.

Some of this may be based on my Hapkido experience. In Hapkido, we're not trying to win a position battle. We're trying to get the fight over as quick as possible. Once we decide to engage, we want complete control over what's going on. We don't want to be in that bad position in the first place. Given a choice, I would much rather be aggressive.

thought it was some video game (is it?) ..not sure what that´s got to do with real life.

People have been drawing relations between games and real life for thousands of years, with games like Go in the east and Chess in the west. People have been drawing relations between stories and real life for probably even longer, such as with parables from the Bible. I've learned plenty of lessons from video games that I've applied to real life.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Collar chokes aren't really cheese. They aren't any easier to set up and finish than armbars/triangles/kimuras/guillotines/sweeps/etc. In fact, most people take a bit longer to get good at cross-collar chokes than those other techniques. I suspect that your fellow white belts that you are rolling with at the moment just have some holes in the game which are handing the chokes to you. I'd say go ahead and keep choking them. That will motivate them to fix whatever they're doing wrong to give you the chokes and then you will have to explore some of the other options from guard.

Now, if you get to the point where you can reliably submit higher belts with your cross-collar chokes, then it will be time to put them aside for a bit and force yourself to get good at some other guard techniques. That probably won't happen for a while.

 

[Oily Dragon]

thought it was some video game (is it?) ..not sure what that´s got to do with real life.

It's competition slang. People find others who "cheese" very annoying opponents. It's a psychological tactic.

One of my favorite Mortal Kombat moves is Kung Lao's diving kick. Works like a charm, no can defense. Over and over you keep knocking them down and it's over fast. By the time you've beaten somebody a few times in a row with Kung Lao, they're broken and at your mercy.

Choking people in grappling works on a similar premise, especially with submission. Subs get easier to apply over time as your opponent's mind and body begin to gas.

It might just be best off trying to do what comes naturally in a given moment. that is why you're on the mat, after all. If that's something cheesy, but it would work, you'd be foolish not to close the deal. It's not just you who learns from that, it's your training bud. Skribs said he's choking out white belts left and right. Good, they need it.

And once you get good enough, in any given moment you might have more than 1 option, but feel ready to go with something you're less comfortable with, like Drop Bear said, make a mistake, get back up, learn, repeat.

 

[Jimmythebull]

It's competition slang. People find others who "cheese" very annoying opponents. It's a psychological tactic.

One of my favorite Mortal Kombat moves is Kung Lao's diving kick. Works like a charm, no can defense. Over and over you keep knocking them down and it's over fast. By the time you've beaten somebody a few times in a row with Kung Lao, they're broken and at your mercy.

Choking people in grappling works on a similar premise, especially with submission. Subs get easier to apply over time as your opponent's mind and body begin to gas.

It might just be best off trying to do what comes naturally in a given moment. If that's something cheesy, but it would work, you'd be foolish not to close the deal. It's not just you who learns from that, it's your training bud. Skribs said he's choking out white belts left and right. Good, they need it.

And once you get good enough, in any given moment you might have more than 1 option, but feel ready to go with something you're less comfortable with, like Drop Bear said, make a mistake, get back up, learn, repeat.

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I do not want to be unfriendly or offensive but how old are you?

 

[Jimmythebull]

I think i need to take some of you Yanky guys out & show you the ropes.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I do not want to be unfriendly or offensive but how old are you?

Old enough to know things.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

thought it was some video game (is it?) ..not sure what that´s got to do with real life.

It's an analogy.

 

[Jimmythebull]

It's an analogy.

still childish

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I do not want to be unfriendly or offensive but how old are you?

Do you think adults don't play video games?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

still childish

No moreso than any other analogy, really.

 

[Jimmythebull]

No moreso than any other analogy, really.

whatever

 

[Oily Dragon]

You knew someone was a cheeser in Street Fighter when they chose Blanka.

 

[skribs]

still childish

What's childish is your close-minded attitude. If you don't like it, you can just not get involved in the discussion, or even put me on ignore.

I do not want to be unfriendly or offensive but how old are you?

Congratulations on being both unfriendly and offensive, while also appearing to project. Because you sound like a preteen that's "too old for kid stuff" and "just wants to train". I had a student like that. Never wanted to play games or participate in group activities because "I'm here to learn how to fight!" He was 12 years old.

One of my favorite Mortal Kombat moves is Kung Lao's diving kick. Works like a charm, no can defense. Over and over you keep knocking them down and it's over fast. By the time you've beaten somebody a few times in a row with Kung Lao, they're broken and at your mercy.

In MK2, once you started punching, it couldn't be broken. My friend banned me using that tactic because I could bring him from 100 to 0 without him being able to move.