MMA bashing on Kung Fu

JowGaWolf

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In my personal opinion, sparring is often given more weight than it deserves. It is not an absolute necessity in developing useful skills.
I was with you right up to this point. Can't learn to catch a ball simply by going through the form of catching a ball. Fighting is a 100 times more complex than catching a ball so sparring is going to be critical to learning how to actually apply the skills. This is why we see "kung fu masters" hop in the ring and they stand like they have never been attacked before. Looking totally lost.

I think sparring is underestimated and that hard sparring is given more value that what it's worth.
 

JowGaWolf

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Yes, I cannot understand how anyone involved in the Martial Arts, or any performance art for that matter, does not enjoy and appreciate that performance.
I don't like it, but I don't hate it either. Kind of a no opinion perspective. It's not my thing so I don't get excited about it. I was impressed at how well they timed their movements, but not so much from a martial arts perspective but just a general perspective of how difficult it is to sync human movement

Things like this are always beyond my capabilities and things like amazes because of what humans are capable of doing, but does nothing for my martial arts interest. Takes a special kind of person to be willing to train this hard to do stuff like this. I take the easy way out. All I need is for my opponent to be worst than me and I'll have a good day. lol.
 

Flying Crane

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There are international competition circuits where people compete in forms as a performance art. They train in forms for a different reason than you do, but it is slightly arrogant and unproductive to call popular international sports with well-developed competition circuits "wrong." That's like speed-skaters calling figure skating "wrong."


And of course I am completely aware of this. You are correct, these things exist. They are a more recent development as performance art. This is not what forms were originally meant to be.
 

Flying Crane

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I was with you right up to this point. Can't learn to catch a ball simply by going through the form of catching a ball. Fighting is a 100 times more complex than catching a ball so sparring is going to be critical to learning how to actually apply the skills. This is why we see "kung fu masters" hop in the ring and they stand like they have never been attacked before. Looking totally lost.

I think sparring is underestimated and that hard sparring is given more value that what it's worth.
Sure, sparring can fill that purpose. Other drills can also fill that purpose. Its ok to disagree.
 

JowGaWolf

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Sure, sparring can fill that purpose. Other drills can also fill that purpose. Its ok to disagree.
I do better than that. I'll give myself an opportunity to learn something new. What other drills can be done that involves the same calculation, strategy, tactics, evasions, attacking, blocking, awareness, nerve and adrenaline management, cardio, observation, aware, and the act of applying a technique against someone who is "free style" attacking you?
 

dvcochran

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Sure, sparring can fill that purpose. Other drills can also fill that purpose. Its ok to disagree.
The Worst saying I hear in the work environment is "that is the way we have always done it". The same is true in MA. I love the history and uniformity of TMA but there is no substitute for testing you technique against people of different disciplines, ilk, and intention. You learn just as much about what does Not work as what does.
 

Hanzou

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Yes, I cannot understand how anyone involved in the Martial Arts, or any performance art for that matter, does not enjoy and appreciate that performance.

I certainly enjoy it. However, I put it in the place of competitive dance or ballet since I don't believe you can develop actual fighting ability from its practice.
 

Flying Crane

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I do better than that. I'll give myself an opportunity to learn something new. What other drills can be done that involves the same calculation, strategy, tactics, evasions, attacking, blocking, awareness, nerve and adrenaline management, cardio, observation, aware, and the act of applying a technique against someone who is "free style" attacking you?
All kinds of gradual escalation of working techniques against partners. It is more scripted than free sparring, of course.

And I am sure you will not be satisfied with that answer. :)
 

Flying Crane

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The Worst saying I hear in the work environment is "that is the way we have always done it". The same is true in MA. I love the history and uniformity of TMA but there is no substitute for testing you technique against people of different disciplines, ilk, and intention. You learn just as much about what does Not work as what does.
I didnt say that is how we have always done it.
 

Flying Crane

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Fighting against resistance is useful in learning how to fight against resistance.
It's where sparring and rolling come in. It's where the "Martial" in Martial Arts comes in.

If a student of the Arts needs to defend themselves in a real self defense situation, which guy do you want to be, the guy who has always trained against resistance, or the guy who never really trained that?

I know which line I'm getting in. I'm getting in that looooooong mf'ker.
I dont disagree.
 

JowGaWolf

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However, I put it in the place of competitive dance or ballet since I don't believe you can develop actual fighting ability from its practice.
I rarely agree with you, but I'm with you on this one. I haven't seen any proof to suggest otherwise. Fighting is very complex activity and there's a lot of things that occur in sparring that isn't replicated by drilling.
 

JowGaWolf

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All kinds of gradual escalation of working techniques against partners. It is more scripted than free sparring, of course.

And I am sure you will not be satisfied with that answer. :)
Actually I don't know how to take that answer because I don't know what gradual escalation of working techniques against partners is or what it would consist of.
 

Buka

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There are international competition circuits where people compete in forms as a performance art. They train in forms for a different reason than you do, but it is slightly arrogant and unproductive to call popular international sports with well-developed competition circuits "wrong." That's like speed-skaters calling figure skating "wrong."



I could watch that video of those Japanese Karate guys all day.

In fact, I think I will!
 

Mitlov

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And of course I am completely aware of this. You are correct, these things exist. They are a more recent development as performance art. This is not what forms were originally meant to be.

If I understand it correctly, Okinawan martial arts were originally meant to be killing marauding samurai with agricultural implements.

Thing is, I haven't seen marauding samurai in MONTHS. Maybe my gas-powered hedge-trimmer kata drove them off?

In all seriousness, it's great if you enjoy martial arts training as recreating one particular training approach from the late 19th century...but there's no reason that's the only right way to do martial arts in 2019.
 

skribs

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Ok. In my art forms are not simply performance art.

It doesn't have to be for the performance itself, in order for you to train to get better at the form. It might not be a training you understand, but it is a form of training.
 
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