Awesome Kung Fu Kick used in MMA

drop bear

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We have a wrist escape in Jow Ga where the hand movement is valid but the body structure isn't. Wing Chun does something similar where the hand movement is valid but the structure isn't. Come to think about it, we have a couple of techniques where the concept of the hand movement doesn't match the body structure that would be required to utilize the hand technique.

If someone told you how to translate a head clinch in a form what would that look like. How would you turn what you see here to a form. What are the important elements that make the clinch successful? Is it how the hands are held, is it the pushing the pushing the head down? Does the form in the bunkai videos help train the habit of keeping the elbow's tight? So if you are creating a form. What would it look like once all of the important elements are captured that allow the clinch to work.

Like this.

 
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JowGaWolf

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They do, but the origin of the kata is actually Okinawan and before that Chinese.
What does this have to do with anything? The kata doesn't have a Chinese salute.
 

Hanzou

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What does this have to do with anything? The kata doesn't have a Chinese salute.

My point is that the origins of the kata are not Japanese. Additionally, the gesture could have came from anywhere considering that the exact point of origin for the kata is unknown.

Wouldn't that be a type of clinching?

That would be a form of grappling.

And yes, the head clinch is grappling.
 
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JowGaWolf

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My point is that the origins of the kata are not Japanese. Additionally, the gesture could have came from anywhere considering that the exact point of origin for the kata is unknown.
If you don't know what the origins of the kata are then how can you say it doesn't represent a head clinch?

Additionally, the gesture could have came from anywhere considering that the exact point of origin for the kata is unknown.
but in your previous statement you mentioned that it was Okinawan and Chinese. Now you are saying that origin is unknown?
 

Hanzou

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If you don't know what the origins of the kata are then how can you say it doesn't represent a head clinch?

1. Because (again) the kata is based on fighting multiple opponents with your back to a wall, blasting then with swift punches, counters, and sweeping kicks. An opening head clinch doesn't make any sense within that context.

2. That gesture doesn't appear the same way in all variations of the kata. Wado-Ryu (the style Abernathy trains in) has a very wide opening gesture, while Shotokan has a very muted gesture where you simply bring your hands together, while the older Okinawan variations are more akin to the gif I posted.

but in your previous statement you mentioned that it was Okinawan and Chinese. Now you are saying that origin is unknown?

I said the exact point is unknown. China is a pretty massive place, with countless martial systems, and we have no idea what system the original form came from. So we know it came to Okinawa by way of China, but that's about it.
 
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JowGaWolf

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1. Because (again) the kata is based on fighting multiple opponents with your back to a wall, blasting then with swift punches, counters, and sweeping kicks. An opening head clinch doesn't make any sense within that context.

2. That gesture doesn't appear the same way in all variations of the kata. Wado-Ryu (the style Abernathy trains in) has a very wide opening gesture, while Shotokan has a very muted gesture where you simply bring your hands together, while the older Okinawan variations are more akin to the gif I posted.



I said the exact point is unknown. China is a pretty massive place, with countless martial systems, and we have no idea what system the original form came from. So we know it came to Okinawa by way of China, but that's about it.
So you are saying that a Kata that fights multiple opponents can't have techniques that can be used on a single person? That means if I get in a fight with 2 people where I quickly beat one of my attackers, I shouldn't put the remaining fighter in a head clinch?
 

Hanzou

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So you are saying that a Kata that fights multiple opponents can't have techniques that can be used on a single person? That means if I get in a fight with 2 people where I quickly beat one of my attackers, I shouldn't put the remaining fighter in a head clinch?

.........

That phony head clinch is the opening of the kata where supposedly multiple people are coming at you from your left and right.

Here is the bunkai of that exact same kata from an older Okinawan style of karate (Shorin Ryu);


Notice the lack of a head clinch.
 

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For example, When a person trains the jab by punching a bag. The are training the "perfect form" of that jab because there is no resistance. When they get into the fight, that "perfect form" degrades. The same jab that we throw in a fight is not the same jab that is thrown in practice when hitting the pads. The jabs that are thrown in a real fight are variations of what we practice when hitting the pads. Bunkai and Forms are the same way.
pic_boxer_face_punch.jpg

When you say -"When a person trains the jab by punching a bag. The are training the "perfect form" of that jab because there is no resistance. When they get into the fight, that "perfect form" degrades. The same jab that we throw in a fight is not the same jab that is thrown in practice when hitting the pads. The jabs that are thrown in a real fight are variations of what we practice when hitting the pads

If you were training throwing a punch, let's say the jab like you mentioned. Would you throw the jab at the bag and not bring it back to position, just leave your arm out, fist touching the bag? Or on the pads? Or in a fight? In some of the videos posted, the counters are great, but the man punching is just doing the freeze frame thing, like being frozen in place. I don't think you would do that, I wouldn't, and I'll bet you even the guy in the vid wouldn't do that if he was fighting.

I don't know, to me, that kind of one step drill is to fighting, the same as lip syncing is to singing.
 
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JowGaWolf

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Would you throw the jab at the bag and not bring it back to position
When you throw a jab in a fight you may get interference from a guard, a parry, a counter, or even a pull on the jab that you throw (in martial arts it's possible to blend with a jab and actually pull on it), the jab may be trapped or the jab itself may be attacked with the elbow. All of these things degrade the jab that you train causing the mechanics of that jab to degrade. This is what I meant by the jab that we train is not the same jab that we fight with. Even evasive movement both from us and our opponent can change how our jab is thrown.

I found a picture (too large to post here) and it showed a boxer in a fight that connects with a right cross. When you look at his cross you can see that his wrist is not aligned as if he turn his wrist in an effort to chase his opponents face.
 
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