Some kung fu and karate do not do well fighting a boxer or skilled street fighter?

moonhill99

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I have read mix reviews that some kung fu and karate do not do well fighting MMA fighter, boxer, Muay Thai, skilled street fighter.:eek::eek:

Not because kung fu and karate style is bad, it is the fighting style is so different.

Many other people talk about fighting range and distance is very different.:banghead:

Like wing chun you almost at the person face.Where a boxer would hit you before you got into fighting range. Likewise some karate like Okinawan karate.

A boxer would hit Okinawan karate person before they got into fighting range to do any moves on the boxer.
 

Drose427

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Early kickboxing.

Pretty self explanatory.

No further training was needed then

Karate guys held their owm against boxers MT, etc.


Even in MMA, karate guys have outstruck other styles, its fairly common.

Because its MMA they had learn more grappling, to stop grappling at least, but yeah.

The only time the "style v style" argument has merit Is grapplin v striking. But their 2 completely different methods, so thats apples to oranges...

When your talking the same methods, (striking v striking, grappling v grappling) its a wildcard.

Depends entirely on the people
 

ShotoNoob

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LET'S GET THIS THREAD ROLLING....
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One of the all time massive karate FAILS of all time..... Classic for the MT > Karate believers.....

EDIT: Can someone please post the gif version.... thx.
 

ShotoNoob

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...A boxer would hit Okinawan karate person before they got into fighting range to do any moves on the boxer.
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Nice theory, not quite how it works. My vid post above, Machida gets clonked by Rua inside typical boxing range. Agreed?
 

Kung Fu Wang

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some kung fu and karate do not do well fighting boxer, ...
Assume we just talk about dealing with boxer only. If a boxer tries to knock his opponent down while his opponent tries to get into clinch ASAP and take the boxer down, who will have better chance to succeed? In 10 rounds of those matches, how many rounds that the boxer can knock his opponent down before his opponent can take him down?

IMO, the grappling art always has advantage over the striking art. If you can't knock your opponent down ASAP, your opponent's clinch and take down may prevent you from having any chance to strike again.

In some full contact matches, you just don't see "knock down/out" happen very often. What does that mean? To me, it means to take your opponent down is easier than to knock him down.

 
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Dinkydoo

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Here we go again. ;)

I can't speak for Karate (though I'd imagine the same applies), its not so much 'what you train' but rather 'how you train'.

The styles of Kung Fu I've had some time in make heavy use of trapping. If you only train to deal with attacks from people who are stepping through with a punch, without a good level of contact and directed aggression, who are leaving their arm out there for you to hold and aren't following up with a number of hard and fast strikes as you attempt to trap/deal with some of the strikes, you're going to have a really hard time applying what you've been training against a variety of arts that train to throw hard and fast flurries of strikes every session - boxing, kickboxing, muay thai.....to name a few.

The OP's comment about fighting ranges is an interesting one and this certainly can apply to the style. The key here is that you don't get overly reliant on fighting someone who is willing to stand there and play the same game as yourself. To do this you should work at transitioning to your most favourable range from a variety of positions and scenarios - this is where 2 person drills and bunkai can be particularly useful in developing the muscle memory to deal with that. If your brave you can try sparring with different styles in a more freestyle (safe) environment. You'll take some heavy shots, definitely, but I found it to be quite humbling and I've learned a lot through doing this.

If you're a smaller person like me (5'8) then you'll no doubt be working on ranges quite a lot anyway.
 
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OP
moonhill99

moonhill99

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The OP's comment about fighting ranges is an interesting one and this certainly can apply to the style. The key here is that you don't get overly reliant on fighting someone who is willing to stand there and play the same game as yourself. To do this you should work at transitioning to your most favourable range from a variety of positions and scenarios - this is where 2 person drills and bunkai can be particularly useful in developing the muscle memory to deal with that. If your brave you can try sparring with different styles in a more freestyle (safe) environment. You'll take some heavy shots, definitely, but I found it to be quite humbling and I've learned a lot through doing this.

If you're a smaller person like me (5'8) then you'll no doubt be working on ranges quite a lot anyway.


But can wing chun work at different fighting ranges? Because it is close fighting range.

A boxer or Muay Thai fights longer fighting range.

A Okinawan karate works at very close fighting ranges.


To do this you should work at transitioning to your most favourable range from a variety of positions and scenarios

But can wing chun or Okinawan karate do that?Does the style and training allow for that.
 
OP
moonhill99

moonhill99

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LET'S GET THIS THREAD ROLLING....
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One of the all time massive karate FAILS of all time..... Classic for the MT > Karate believers.....

EDIT: Can someone please post the gif version.... thx.

I don't why that guy tried to fight but looking at video again he was not even trying to fight back.

I have seen street fights with no martial arts training fight better than this.The guy never hit back it like he froze up.

What type of karate is that? A karate style that is mostly 90% kicks.
 

qianfeng

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I have read mix reviews that some kung fu and karate do not do well fighting MMA fighter, boxer, Muay Thai, skilled street fighter.:eek::eek:

Not because kung fu and karate style is bad, it is the fighting style is so different.

Many other people talk about fighting range and distance is very different.:banghead:

Like wing chun you almost at the person face.Where a boxer would hit you before you got into fighting range. Likewise some karate like Okinawan karate.

A boxer would hit Okinawan karate person before they got into fighting range to do any moves on the boxer.

It's probably because those kung fu/karate people don't have much sparring experience and aren't used to fighting. Karate isn't short ranged is it? It has quite a few kicks.
Kung fu vs Boxing
 

oftheherd1

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But can wing chun work at different fighting ranges? Because it is close fighting range.

A boxer or Muay Thai fights longer fighting range.

A Okinawan karate works at very close fighting ranges.


To do this you should work at transitioning to your most favourable range from a variety of positions and scenarios

But can wing chun or Okinawan karate do that?Does the style and training allow for that.

I am not familiar with any type of kung fu, Muay Thai, or even Okinaway karate. But Hapkido, one of the grappling arts, can work at long or short distances. We tend to move into an attack. We may trap or grab to a grapple, and may combine a strike or kick along with a block. It depends on many things. There is one thing about moving into an attack that I don't usually see people mention. You have to be both fast and accurate. Otherwise you have put yourself where your opponent couldn't have hoped to find you, right in his sphere of power. But the speed and accuracy will do much to confuse and damage an opponent if done well.

Hapkido, and I would assume most grappling arts, have long range kicks as well as short range kicks. We tend to use grapples that move us out of the way of an opponent's counter strikes and kicks, or prevent the opponent from even using one.

So as said above, level of ability probably has more to do with success than style. Level of experience with another art can also be helpful. Some MA use different feints, and if you aren't used to them, you can get suckered more easily, but your counter to the feint may prevent your opponent's completion. Again, mostly depending on the different abilities of the two opponents.
 

Tez3

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level of ability probably has more to do with success than style.

Absolutely, I wish people would remember this. Also there are in all styles some people who have a natural talent for fighting and these will rise like cream to the top. Hard work gets you there too but when you have a combination of talent and hard work you got a damn good fighter whatever the style.
 

Dinkydoo

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But can wing chun work at different fighting ranges? Because it is close fighting range.

A boxer or Muay Thai fights longer fighting range.

A Okinawan karate works at very close fighting ranges.


To do this you should work at transitioning to your most favourable range from a variety of positions and scenarios

But can wing chun or Okinawan karate do that?Does the style and training allow for that.

The style and training should allow for that. In my very limited experience of Wing Chun we placed a lot of emphasis on footwork when transitioning to a closer position.

A Wing Chun fighter is more likely to close the gap to meet and then deal with an attack - and a good WC practitioner certainly won't 'break' their WC in order to stand back and fight at the distance say, a Northern Mantis practitioner might.
 

Jenna

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A boxer would hit Okinawan karate person before they got into fighting range to do any moves on the boxer.
Which kind of boxing do you mean, normal Queensbury rules? or Chinese boxing or Thai or some other? I do not understand what you mean a boxer would "hit"?? so what is a hit among lots thrown in a match? In this instance karateka will naturally block a boxer strike.. and? then what? surely you are not suggesting there is some thing to be judged or deduced or concluded from this single "hit"?

You do not think maybe your appraisal is over simplistic and has little relation to any thing in real world? Jx
 

Mephisto

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I have read mix reviews that some kung fu and karate do not do well fighting MMA fighter, boxer, Muay Thai, skilled street fighter.:eek::eek:

Not because kung fu and karate style is bad, it is the fighting style is so different.

Many other people talk about fighting range and distance is very different.:banghead:

Like wing chun you almost at the person face.Where a boxer would hit you before you got into fighting range. Likewise some karate like Okinawan karate.

A boxer would hit Okinawan karate person before they got into fighting range to do any moves on the boxer.
Where did you read this? What's your source? I'm sure there are also boxers and street fighters that have done poorly against Kung fu and karate practitioners. That being said, I'd say statistically it's probably easier to find a good boxing school than it is to find a good Kung fu school. Unless you're talking cardio boxing, all boxing gyms that train fighters will spar, and spar hard. This is not the case for all Kung fu or karate schools, some may spar hard but it's not the same standard as boxing. Kf and karate may have other "sparring" like drills in place of hard sparring where less contact is used and other attributes are developed. These sparring drills are good for attribute building but they can't replace hard sparring.
 

Mephisto

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Which kind of boxing do you mean, normal Queensbury rules? or Chinese boxing or Thai or some other? I do not understand what you mean a boxer would "hit"?? so what is a hit among lots thrown in a match? In this instance karateka will naturally block a boxer strike.. and? then what? surely you are not suggesting there is some thing to be judged or deduced or concluded from this single "hit"?

You do not think maybe your appraisal is over simplistic and has little relation to any thing in real world? Jx
The problem with karate blocks that I've seen is they can be slow and difficult to execute against a combination attack. They also seem like they'd be hard to pull off against an opponent that is in a tight range like a boxer that moves in tight and throws hooks. Of course kyukoshin seems to use a tight cover much like a boxers, so it's reasonable to assume other versions of karate have a similiar approach.
 

drop bear

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More money in boxing so there is better people doing it and more time spent making it good.

If you had karate guys earning a million dollars per fight. You would eventually have some red hot karate.
 

drop bear

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I think in the sports fighting environment there are more gyms dedicated to producing exceptional fighters. So they start with better stock and then gear the training towards talented fighters. So instead of slowing the class down to accommodate the hobbyist you get serious fighters with serious fighters.
 

oftheherd1

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...
There is one thing about moving into an attack that I don't usually see people mention. You have to be both fast and accurate. Otherwise you have put yourself where your opponent couldn't have hoped to find you, right in his sphere of power. But the speed and accuracy will do much to confuse and damage an opponent if done well.
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We tend to use grapples that move us out of the way of an opponent's counter strikes and kicks, or prevent the opponent from even using one.
...
Some MA use different feints, and if you aren't used to them, you can get suckered more easily, but your counter to the feint may prevent your opponent's completion.

The problem with karate blocks that I've seen is they can be slow and difficult to execute against a combination attack. They also seem like they'd be hard to pull off against an opponent that is in a tight range like a boxer that moves in tight and throws hooks. Of course kyukoshin seems to use a tight cover much like a boxers, so it's reasonable to assume other versions of karate have a similiar approach.

I don't know about Karate, but I know TKD practitioners often use a flurry of punches and kicks, just as a boxer might, except if you are talking about traditional boxing, as I think you are, the traditional boxer won't kick. Also note in the upper bolded area above, that sometimes your counter will prevent your opponent from striking or kicking you even if he wants to.
 

Jenna

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The problem with karate blocks that I've seen is they can be slow and difficult to execute against a combination attack. They also seem like they'd be hard to pull off against an opponent that is in a tight range like a boxer that moves in tight and throws hooks. Of course kyukoshin seems to use a tight cover much like a boxers, so it's reasonable to assume other versions of karate have a similiar approach.
Understand what you are saying thank you.. I did not wish to do disservice to practitioner of karate as to me I have seen example of very proficient and dynamic karate that is far from kata and could block combos :) Understand what you are saying though :) Jx
 
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