Some kung fu and karate do not do well fighting a boxer or skilled street fighter?

K-man

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TANG SOO DO--DEFENSE STRIKE:
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Some new poster was looking into TKD, another mentioned TSD. Go I YT'd the latter with combo.
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The TSD Master calls this "Fighting Combo #1." Kihon karate presents this @ beginner level. Simple application strategy.
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Note, the vid shows K-man's (cut-the-crap) application. It shoud be apparent I'm presenting a balanced view of both sides.... guess not.
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The point is the strike follows on immediately on the block. Hence in the block-defense scenario, the exchange is presumably ended by the reverse punch in this straight forward depiction.
'Cut the crap' was a request to you to stop the personal stuff.

As to this technique, it simply isn't a block. It is a forearm strike followed by a reverse strike and if a video showing it breaking a board doesn't convince you of that then I don't know what would.
Well on the MMA, I like to think of karate working in that environment.... have posted on my support for same.
Cool, I have no issue with that. It is just not my scene.
This isn't an ego battle. There's plenty a karate practitioner in my area including my school who feel other arts are too difficult to become proficient at. So we do a more basic karate style. Your response is disrespectful to people making practical choices.
In time all practitioners should become proficient but if you just practise kihon you will just be a very proficient advanced beginner. There is no disrespect in this comment, just the plain truth. It is no wonder guys like Drop Bear and Hanzou get stuck into karate when people show kihon as advanced training.

EDIT: Note the TSD stylists in my vid are high ranking senior belts. I don't see block-breaks in the standard black-belt karate curriculum...
I don't see block-breaks anywhere but I do see plenty of soto uchi, gyaku tsuki in basic kihon.
 

drop bear

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It is a fairly fundamental concept not restricted to karate.

If you take your hands away from your face you create an opening that they can punch through.
 

ShotoNoob

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I found this a Good read....
I think it's mainly because people don't understand what it is they are trying to accomplish with the movements. I was always taught that the opposite hand as it "retraces" and retracts as the main hand "blocks" is where the softer parry movement is. To use a kenpo term, it is the minor movement before the major.
Yes, I believe this is in fact the Kenpo interpretation. In my style of traditional karate, the blocks are generally hard, however, they are in some terms softer thaN Shotokan karate. As we get into application in my style, the blocks in certain cases move toward the kenpo principle.
I believe the Kenpo interpretation is the more sophisticated for actual fighting....
Second, it's because modern training says it's a "block", which in okinawan karate it was just a movement with application potential, one of which was a block. You were training multiple applications for one motion. For example, if the distance is a little bit longer, it is a parry with one hand and then limb destruction with the "blocking hand" to the limb. If it is closer, it is a trap with the one hand and a hammerfist to the jaw with the "blocking hand".
Again, this is my understanding to. I don't practice an Okinawan style per se, so others such as yourself can describe for me / us. I think this is the point that the TSD Master in the vid is making. It is consistent with the position of the Master who I am working with. When I 1st met this Master, he was of K-man's feeling. But that turned out to be because the students weren't training the "mental clarity" dimension, they were copycatting kickboxing, sport karate (see end note).
Lastly, "traditional karate" as it was practiced on Okinawan was designed as a civilian self-defense system. It assumed a much closer distance than the later japanese style karate that was designed around kendo sword fighting distance. Trying to implement the close range techniques that it was designed around to a longer distance doesn't always translate well. This is why in SOME schools of Japanese karate there is a big disconnect between their sparring practices and kata applications.
Again, I'm following in-line with your ideas. The problem I see with taking your position 100%, is that it ignores the traditional elements in Shotokan /Japanese karaete that don't go to the extreme of Shotokan point fighting kumite with the extreme distancing. Even in Shotokan, the OLDER JKA maInly tend to stalk one another, rather than all that hyperactive bouncing all over.... Moreover, and this in some of the vids I've posted (Shotokan), when they do get close, many can engage in infighting.
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The 'disconnect' you speak is definitely there and it shouldn't be. There should be an allowance for differences, but not the excessive copycat of conventions that some one came up with to promote karate as a sport. This is one of my big criticisms of Shotokan, AS COMMONLY PRACTICED.
 
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ShotoNoob

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'Cut the crap' was a request to you to stop the personal stuff.
I apologize if that's how it came across. I was highlighting your level of achievement vs. others or other arts...

As to this technique, it simply isn't a block. It is a forearm strike followed by a reverse strike and if a video showing it breaking a board doesn't convince you of that then I don't know what would.
I'm not asking you to convince me of anything. I must sound the same way to you. Blocks are strikes vs. blocks can be strikes....
Cool, I have no issue with that. It is just not my scene.
MMA competition is not mine either. Yet I have had other students or instructors challenge me & I felt like I was in MMA.
In time all practitioners should become proficient but if you just practise kihon you will just be a very proficient advanced beginner. There is no disrespect in this comment, just the plain truth. It is no wonder guys like Drop Bear and Hanzou get stuck into karate when people show kihon as advanced training.
In fact, the karate for MMA program we are developing is drawing more interest from students @ our own school who want to move away from the physical practice of karate to the "mental clarity" dimension.

I don't see block-breaks anywhere but I do see plenty of soto uchi, gyaku tsuki in basic kihon.

OK.
 
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ShotoNoob

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'...
In time all practitioners should become proficient but if you just practise kihon you will just be a very proficient advanced beginner. There is no disrespect in this comment, just the plain truth. It is no wonder guys like Drop Bear and Hanzou get stuck into karate when people show kihon as advanced training....
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This is where I think you are wrong. The way most practice traditional karate, you would be correct. The way they are practicing is physical. Repeating physical form. Kihon technique practiced to traditional principles & standards is sophisticated. This is in fact where we are starting the small group in our Karate for MMA class. There are plenty of hard sparring kickboxer-karateka doing the physical.
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We are doing the mental side from day in our program.... Ties back to my TKD vid above....
 

ShotoNoob

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It is a fairly fundamental concept not restricted to karate.

If you take your hands away from your face you create an opening that they can punch through.
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Students who believe this are not in our Karate for MMA class. This can be found in a bijjion marital art schools of all kind....
 

K-man

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This is where I think you are wrong. The way most practice traditional karate, you would be correct. The way they are practicing is physical. Repeating physical form. Kihon technique practiced to traditional principles & standards is sophisticated. This is in fact where we are starting the small group in our Karate for MMA class. There are plenty of hard sparring kickboxer-karateka doing the physical.
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We are doing the mental side from day in our program.... Ties back to my TKD vid above....
Cool, then we have something in common. However, I fail to see what the TKD video has to do with it. Kihon is kihon. To say it is otherwise denies what kihon is ... basics. Once you go beyond that you are no longer practising kihon and the way it looks will change according to the person executing the technique. It can be strong as demonstrated in your video or it might be soft, more like a deflection. The kihon will generally be from a static base, the advanced technique will be from a flexible base. Once you add the mental aspect, well the dynamics change again.
 
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moonhill99

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I would say that is exactly your theme shown in the street fighter vs. karate girl vid. She exhibits more towards the pure sport fighting convention of dart in & dart out, hitting with a speed shot on way in. Once inside & her speed shot/ combo is spent, street fighter grabs, stuffs, counter strikes around her moves....
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People look at what she does as indicative of Shotokan kumite point fighting--you will see the better Shotokan fighters at tournaments prepared to do more than the conventional, basic sortie in & out type exchange. The Shotokan karate syllabus is chocked with far more than, "jump-in with speed shot /or/ snap out speed kick and back off" routine.

The karate girl did a good job fighting but her defense was bad. Many times getting knocked over to the ground or the guy grabbing her or pushing her and her not knowing what to do at that point.

Well for the dart in & dart out? If she dart in with sloppy defense and never dart out, well she would be on the ground a lot more or got hit really bad.

Her defense was bad but her attack much better.
 
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moonhill99

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These two karate look really awesome and I would not mine training in it.




But get's me to wonder how effective it is fighting a boxer or Muay Thai.

The fighting range is really close and some thing tells me a boxer or Muay Thai would hit the karate person before they came close enough in fighting range to do a move.
 
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punisher73

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These two karate look really awesome and I would not mine training in it.




But get's me to wonder how effective it is fighting a boxer or Muay Thai.

The fighting range is really close and some thing tells me a boxer or Muay Thai would hit the karate person before they came close enough in fighting range to do a move.

Can karate be used against those styles? Yes, understanding of the combat principles contained within the kata does give those tools when practiced properly.

BUT, what you are looking at is applications from a traditional kata that was designed in response to a civilian self-defense situation (as opposed to the often cited "made for the battlefield" or other environments). If you watch "street attacks" or self-defense scenarios, the attacker is usually already closer in, and in range for what the techniques were designed for. Against, a boxer or Muay Thai person you are going to see more set ups with hands/feet to close the distance and angle the attacks, or even draw an attack and move to the blind spot to counter. They are not going to just resort to the closer range techniques without bridging the gap somehow. I have known many "traditional" people beat boxers with snap kicks to the knees to counter their jab and control the distance of the boxer.
 

K-man

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These two karate look really awesome and I would not mine training in it.




But get's me to wonder how effective it is fighting a boxer or Muay Thai.

The fighting range is really close and some thing tells me a boxer or Muay Thai would hit the karate person before they came close enough in fighting range to do a move.
As Punisher said, karate was not designed to fight trained fighters. However, one of the Okinawan bunkai moves shown above I taught to my Krav guys tonight as a means of getting past a boxer's defence. Don't underestimate good karate.
 

punisher73

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Just some food for thought.

The techniques of kata have their limits and were never intended to be used against an opponent in an arena or on a battlefield. Choki Motobu

 

ShotoNoob

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The karate girl did a good job fighting but her defense was bad. Many times getting knocked over to the ground or the guy grabbing her or pushing her and her not knowing what to do at that point.

Well for the dart in & dart out? If she dart in with sloppy defense and never dart out, well she would be on the ground a lot more or got hit really bad.

Her defense was bad but her attack much better.
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Yeah, that was kind of my assessment too....
 
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moonhill99

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Can karate be used against those styles? Yes, understanding of the combat principles contained within the kata does give those tools when practiced properly.

BUT, what you are looking at is applications from a traditional kata that was designed in response to a civilian self-defense situation (as opposed to the often cited "made for the battlefield" or other environments)
. If you watch "street attacks" or self-defense scenarios, the attacker is usually already closer in, and in range for what the techniques were designed for. Against, a boxer or Muay Thai person you are going to see more set ups with hands/feet to close the distance and angle the attacks, or even draw an attack and move to the blind spot to counter. They are not going to just resort to the closer range techniques without bridging the gap somehow. I have known many "traditional" people beat boxers with snap kicks to the knees to counter their jab and control the distance of the boxer.

So what Karate or Kung Fu translate better in MMA or fighting a boxer or Muay Thai?


Against, a boxer or Muay Thai person you are going to see more set ups with hands/feet to close the distance and angle the attacks, or even draw an attack and move to the blind spot to counter. They are not going to just resort to the closer range techniques without bridging the gap somehow.

Is it some thing you can get from Okinawan Karate or American Kenpo Karate or would you need some other Karate or art to implement it to do this?
 

K-man

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So what Karate or Kung Fu translate better in MMA or fighting a boxer or Muay Thai?


Against, a boxer or Muay Thai person you are going to see more set ups with hands/feet to close the distance and angle the attacks, or even draw an attack and move to the blind spot to counter. They are not going to just resort to the closer range techniques without bridging the gap somehow.

Is it some thing you can get from Okinawan Karate or American Kenpo Karate or would you need some other Karate or art to implement it to do this?
This is one of the problems. In competition you can't wait for someone to come to you because that does't make a spectacle. Regardless of that there is a very good entry technique (that comes from Gekisai kata actually) where you kick and enter with an elbow strike.
 

MAfreak

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i didn't read the whole thread, but an important thing on this topic is, that every beginning boxer learns how to hold his/her hands for a good guard.
even experienced kung fu and karate people don't do it, since they just learn it wrong from the beginning (hikite instead of protecting jaw etc.). also doing forms is much less effective than dowing shadow boxing. these are two examples i would give here.
 

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