Awesome Kung Fu Kick used in MMA

[JowGaWolf]

I remember talking with another martial artist about how they used forms (it was a hybrid art drawing on Indonesian and Filipino roots). He demonstrated part of a form for me that was just a series of steps (literally, no hand movements), and it looked pretty goofy. Then he showed me a couple of applications to their techniques, and showed me where the sequences of footwork (including one that knelt halfway through and another that rose from kneeling) showed up in the form. They used it just like you're talking about.

His instructor would say something like, "Okay, while you block, take steps 7 through 9 and bring his arm with you."

It was a way for them to learn the footwork, and then plug it into a technique, so they could work the handwork separately.

My forms are a little different. Some of the stuff in my forms are like as you explained while other parts of the form are used in fighting exactly the way that it's use in fighting. I have one punching form that can be use as a counter to a kick and the counter only works if it's performed exactly like it is in the form. My Sifu never taught me this technique. I just stumbled on it during training. I was trying to punch someone but they kicked instead and I was able to get enough feedback to understand what was happening. So instead of using the technique for punching am able to now use the same technique against some kicks. The application of this punching technique only works against a kick if it's done exactly like it's done in a form, any variation of this technique increases failure. I know this because I see student's trying to force the technique by adding variation that they think they need and each time they fail.

 

[Hanzou]

He may be adding to what was originally intended, but that's not the same as making it up. If he finds a movement they already rehearse (in a form) and uses that to teach something that should be in their training but isn't, that's probably a good intro to it. As I said, arts should evolve, and this would be a good evolutionary step for Karate.

Except there is zero evidence that a head clinch is what was intended from that movement. Further, if you look at the actual movement from the kata, you would have to have a fairly active imagination to pull a head clinch from that movement. From my experience with Aberbathy's videos and books, he has that in spades.

Arts should evolve, no argument there. The problem though is that if you believe that your kata/form fills all the holes in your art, you're art isn't going to evolve because you'll wrongly believe that your art has all the answers.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Except there is zero evidence that a head clinch is what was intended from that movement. Further, if you look at the actual movement from the kata, you would have to have a fairly active imagination to pull a head clinch from that movement. From my experience with Aberbathy's videos and books, he has that in spades.

Arts should evolve, no argument there. The problem though is that if you believe that your kata/form fills all the holes in your art, you're art isn't going to evolve because you'll wrongly believe that your art has all the answers.

I'm not claiming the kata fills all the holes. I'm suggesting that using what's in the kata - movements folks already know - can make it easier to teach even new material.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Except there is zero evidence that a head clinch is what was intended from that movement.

When I look at Kata I think of kung fu forms. One movement may have different applications and no one says "there is zero evidence that the application was intended from that movement" when someone stumbles or discovers another application for that movement. Then it's either going to work or not work. If the application works then the technique is valid and that move can represent that application. I believe this is how the martial art technique evolves.

In Jow Ga I can show one movement and give you multiple applications from that one movement. I will use a sweep for example, In Jow Ga the sweep is always taught to students as a low sweep. Similar to this

For me my sweep has a wider application range because I'm a deceptive fighter. When my Sifu first saw me do my version of the back sweep, he keep telling me that I need to get lower like the guy in the picture. He stopped telling me this when he saw that not only can I do the sweep without being this low, but that I had better mobility with the sweep when I wasn't this low. You know what he didn't tell me. He didn't say "There's is zero evidence that that the sweep was intended to be done from that position." The way that I do my sweep gives me 2 additional applications adds 2 deceptive appearances that aren't in the original sweep that is taught in all the Jow Ga schools. Based on what you stated, While there is no evidence that the way I do my sweeps were ever used. There is also no evidence that it wasn't used that way.

This is how I look at those Kata videos. While you suggest that there's no evidence that those techniques work that way or were intended that way, there is no evidence that it doesn't work that way. Based on what I saw in those videos, the application of the clinch and pushing the head down is very practical and in my book that's how fighting should be. I usually don't have concern with applications until they stop being practical.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Kata and forms should never be viewed as "This is the technique and this is the only application for the technique" To have the mindset that techniques are that limited will prevent any deeper understanding of what can be done, how it can be applied, and will ultimately prevent the martial art from evolving.

I would be interested in seeing just how much you understand technique by watching a video of you free sparring. I'm curious to know if you just do basic kick boxing stuff or if you can actually perform beyond that. At the very minimum, you should be able to use at least 4 techniques that aren't basic punching and kicking skills.

 

[Hanzou]

I'm not claiming the kata fills all the holes. I'm suggesting that using what's in the kata - movements folks already know - can make it easier to teach even new material.

Well that's my point; a head clinch is not in the kata, and it's not a move that karateka are going to know. Adding a head clinch to a kata is simply trying to fill a hole. It's no different than the clown who said the Bunkai of a Shotokan kata was actually ground fighting.

 

[Hanzou]

When I look at Kata I think of kung fu forms. One movement may have different applications and no one says "there is zero evidence that the application was intended from that movement" when someone stumbles or discovers another application for that movement. Then it's either going to work or not work. If the application works then the technique is valid and that move can represent that application. I believe this is how the martial art technique evolves.

In Jow Ga I can show one movement and give you multiple applications from that one movement. I will use a sweep for example, In Jow Ga the sweep is always taught to students as a low sweep. Similar to this

For me my sweep has a wider application range because I'm a deceptive fighter. When my Sifu first saw me do my version of the back sweep, he keep telling me that I need to get lower like the guy in the picture. He stopped telling me this when he saw that not only can I do the sweep without being this low, but that I had better mobility with the sweep when I wasn't this low. You know what he didn't tell me. He didn't say "There's is zero evidence that that the sweep was intended to be done from that position." The way that I do my sweep gives me 2 additional applications adds 2 deceptive appearances that aren't in the original sweep that is taught in all the Jow Ga schools. Based on what you stated, While there is no evidence that the way I do my sweeps were ever used. There is also no evidence that it wasn't used that way.

Except that isn't what I'm telling you. I'm telling you that that's a sweep. I have no problem with a variation of a sweep, as long as you acknowledge that the purpose of that sweep is to knock someone down. My issue is when people take movements that are clearly one thing and then claim its something completely different in order to fill holes within the system.

This is how I look at those Kata videos. While you suggest that there's no evidence that those techniques work that way or were intended that way, there is no evidence that it doesn't work that way. Based on what I saw in those videos, the application of the clinch and pushing the head down is very practical and in my book that's how fighting should be. I usually don't have concern with applications until they stop being practical.

The evidence is simply looking at the movement that clinch is based on.

A head clinch was clearly not its original purpose.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Except that isn't what I'm telling you. I'm telling you that that's a sweep. I have no problem with a variation of a sweep, as long as you acknowledge that the purpose of that sweep is to knock someone down. My issue is when people take movements that are clearly one thing and then claim its something completely different in order to fill holes within the system.



The evidence is simply looking at the movement that clinch is based on.

A head clinch was clearly not its original purpose.

So what is the application of the movement as you see it?

 

[Deleted member 34973]

Shotokan...must not have any throws. Is that assessment correct?

 

[Deleted member 34973]

Pinan four...does have a head clinch to a knee strike. Roughly the last technique in the form, ust before the turn into a knife hand strike.

 

[Phobius]

Pinan four...does have a head clinch to a knee strike. Roughly the last technique in the form, ust before the turn into a knife hand strike.

Agreed that is definitively a head clinch. Now I might agree that the gif provided by Hanzou it would be a stretch to call that a head clinch since it does seem like the intent and force is not correct in that movement. Then again we have a form in my system that is void of body movement because it emphasize hand movements separated from application (Structure is not void however).

 

[Hanzou]

So what is the application of the movement as you see it?

It's nothing. It's merely a salute or gesture to open the kata.

Saying that its a head clinch doesn't jive with the rest of the kata which is clearly structured to be fighting multiple opponents with your back against a wall.

Its important to note that in some variations, that salute or gesture isn't even there.

 

[Hanzou]

Shotokan...must not have any throws. Is that assessment correct?

No.

http://www.karatebyjesse.com/funakoshi-9-throws-shotokan-karate/

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well that's my point; a head clinch is not in the kata, and it's not a move that karateka are going to know. Adding a head clinch to a kata is simply trying to fill a hole. It's no different than the clown who said the Bunkai of a Shotokan kata was actually ground fighting.

I'm talking about the hand movement in the kata that Abernathy is using to teach the clinch. They know that movement, so it's a good place to link in the clinch. Adults learn faster when new learning is clearly linked to old learning, and that's what he's doing when he uses that movement to teach a clinch.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Shotokan...must not have any throws. Is that assessment correct?

I've heard mixed reports on this. I have a student who studied Shotokan for 8 years in Germany, and they did no throws, other than sweeps (which they seem to view as a variation of a kick). I've heard from others in Shotokan that there are, indeed, strikes within the system. Whether those were originally there and were lost in some schools, or weren't originally there and have been added in some schools, I cannot say.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Then again we have a form in my system that is void of body movement because it emphasize hand movements separated from application (Structure is not void however)

We have a wrist escape in Jow Ga where the hand movement is valid but the body structure isn't. Wing Chun does something similar where the hand movement is valid but the structure isn't. Come to think about it, we have a couple of techniques where the concept of the hand movement doesn't match the body structure that would be required to utilize the hand technique.

If someone told you how to translate a head clinch in a form what would that look like. How would you turn what you see here to a form. What are the important elements that make the clinch successful? Is it how the hands are held, is it the pushing the pushing the head down? Does the form in the bunkai videos help train the habit of keeping the elbow's tight? So if you are creating a form. What would it look like once all of the important elements are captured that allow the clinch to work.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I have no problem with a variation of a sweep, as long as you acknowledge that the purpose of that sweep is to knock someone down.

My variations of a sweep aren't always for knocking someone down. But the movement is the same as a sweep. The way that I do my sweeps allows me to strike by using the same movement that is used for a sweep.

If I need to change a sweep into something else then I can do that as it doesn't require a different movement to do so.

 

[Hanzou]

I'm talking about the hand movement in the kata that Abernathy is using to teach the clinch. They know that movement, so it's a good place to link in the clinch. Adults learn faster when new learning is clearly linked to old learning, and that's what he's doing when he uses that movement to teach a clinch.

And if you watched the video he exaggerates the hand movement of the actual kata in order to make his head clinch work.

So no, they won't know what the movement is. They'll only know an approximation of it.

Again, if you want to learn how to properly do a head clinch, go learn Muay Thai, or a grappling system. You're not going to learn how to do it from a phony bunkai.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It's nothing. It's merely a salute or gesture to open the kata.

Saying that its a head clinch doesn't jive with the rest of the kata which is clearly structured to be fighting multiple opponents with your back against a wall.

Its important to note that in some variations, that salute or gesture isn't even there.

I'll leave the karate to you then. I always thought the Japanese bow that practitioners do was the salute.

 

[Hanzou]

I'll leave the karate to you then. I always thought the Japanese bow that practitioners do was the salute.

They do, but the origin of the kata is actually Okinawan and before that Chinese.