Measuring time in a real fight? ..can you last?

[newGuy12]

On a general note, good stuff on the subject of 'fights' from thardey above :tup:.

Quite right!

 

[punisher73]

It depends on how you are defining "your gas tank" as others have mentioned. The body uses 3 main energy systems to accomplish physical activities.

ATP-CP: full out anaerobic exertion, lasts up to 15 seconds, then it's burned out. I can't remember the exact figure but I want to say you lose about 60% of your strength after this system burns out.

Lactate: Little bit longer burning fuel system, still anaerobic, can last up to 3 minutes. After this is burned out, you lose around another 20% of your strength.

Aerobic: Uses fat as it's main energy system. Is engaged in low intensity activities for long periods of time. Anything over 3 minutes.

So based on that, you can't change how your body uses it's fuel. If you sprint at 100% you can only do so far about 15 seconds. You can still be running at your "100%" but it is less than half of what you are capable of.

This is where conditioning is so important for a martial artist on 2 fronts. If I strength train and increase (fake numbers thrown out for illustration) my punching power from 100 units of force to 200 units of force, I have accomplishe two things. 1) Higher output to do more damage and end it more quickly and 2) If it goes longer, I still have a higher output available that I have the ability to cause damage.

I know there is a HUGE difference between a sports match and a "streetfight" but I also think there is alot to learn from MMA matches, and I have also seen it happen in jail fights I have witnessed. Attacker goes on a blitz and either a) takes out the other guy in a short amount of time like we hope for, or b) Other guy is trained and defends till the other guy wears himself out and then gets beatdown because he has nothing left to offer.

I think alot of people fall into that trap and don't take into account of what to do if the other guy weathers your best stuff and is still ready to go some more.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Some of my thoughts on the subject:

No matter how many times they took me town, I was always able to get back up and keep fighting. "

this may be a big key in how and if you survive a fight. If you have been trained to not quite, never give up, never stop trying you may last longer than the person that stops everytime they are hit hard or hurt.

There is realy no way of knowing how long you will last because each fight is different and circumstances change with each encounter. If I or you are hit by someone 100 pounds or more heavier than you you may not last as long as you would if the person was 50 pounds lighter. If you are blind sided than you may not last as long as you would if you knew the fight was going to happen. There is no real way of knowing until it happens

 

[Empty Hands]

I would never argue against endurance and perserverance as as important components to surviving a fight. That said, no matter how good your endurance, you aren't going to do well with a broken arm, a crushed trachea, or a mangled eye. Don't go in like you have to last 15 rounds with Ali. The stakes are too high.

 

[thardey]

I would never argue against endurance and perserverance as as important components to surviving a fight. That said, no matter how good your endurance, you aren't going to do well with a broken arm, a crushed trachea, or a mangled eye. Don't go in like you have to last 15 rounds with Ali. The stakes are too high.

If by that you're referring to "pacing yourself" -- quite right!

 

[thardey]

It depends on how you are defining "your gas tank" as others have mentioned. The body uses 3 main energy systems to accomplish physical activities.

ATP-CP: full out anaerobic exertion, lasts up to 15 seconds, then it's burned out. I can't remember the exact figure but I want to say you lose about 60% of your strength after this system burns out.

Lactate: Little bit longer burning fuel system, still anaerobic, can last up to 3 minutes. After this is burned out, you lose around another 20% of your strength.

Aerobic: Uses fat as it's main energy system. Is engaged in low intensity activities for long periods of time. Anything over 3 minutes.

So based on that, you can't change how your body uses it's fuel. If you sprint at 100% you can only do so far about 15 seconds. You can still be running at your "100%" but it is less than half of what you are capable of.

This is where conditioning is so important for a martial artist on 2 fronts. If I strength train and increase (fake numbers thrown out for illustration) my punching power from 100 units of force to 200 units of force, I have accomplishe two things. 1) Higher output to do more damage and end it more quickly and 2) If it goes longer, I still have a higher output available that I have the ability to cause damage.

I know there is a HUGE difference between a sports match and a "streetfight" but I also think there is alot to learn from MMA matches, and I have also seen it happen in jail fights I have witnessed. Attacker goes on a blitz and either a) takes out the other guy in a short amount of time like we hope for, or b) Other guy is trained and defends till the other guy wears himself out and then gets beatdown because he has nothing left to offer.

I think alot of people fall into that trap and don't take into account of what to do if the other guy weathers your best stuff and is still ready to go some more.

When people ask me honestly about the value of Karate, my first reply is usually that karate teaches you to throw powerful strikes, using less energy. I did boxing before karate, and I don't know if I can really punch harder than I did then, but in instead of throwing a hook, I can throw a hooking palm, using 1/3 of the energy I did back then.

So, a lot of my personal Karate training involves conserving energy, without sacrificing power.

Punisher, how long does it take to recharge your anaerobic, or Lactic "tank"? That is, does conditioning help you recover faster "between rounds".

 

[still learning]

S_L you have so much to learn. I mean really how long can you last in a real fight? You or anybody else until the fight is over one way or the other.Standing in the middle of a ring by yoursrlf throwing punches and kicks means absolutely nothingcompare to a real fight.

Have you eer been in one? I would say no by all of your post.

Have you ever really witness a real fight? Same answer probaly no.

Do you have a clue what really goes on in a real fight?


If you do you would have a better understanding to your question. Have a nice day.

Hello, One of the points I was trying to make with the kids is this: If you are not in shape....and you run of energy before your attacker does? ..how much of a chance will you get in trying to defend and fight back if you are "out of gas".

Many of the above comments were great in sense ....the fight in the person (killer instinct to survive), size of the person hitting you, you own energy, getting hit in right places will end the fight very quickly, the other persons who is less skill or more skill can determine how long a fight will last for you or him?

There was a fight in supermarket parking lot, we were watching two guys going at it...after about 30 seconds of slugging it out...both guys huffing and puffing..out of gas neither one could hold the hand up to punch...it end that way...

A friend who grew up in rough area...said they would keep hitting/kicking until the other person is on the ground NOT moving or able to get back up....after so many fights they had...this was one way to make sure the other guy will not get back up to attack again...(high school days)

It does not take a scientist to figure out how long a fights last.....it can end with one good hit....or go on until someone is hurt,knock-out , or quits, or other people jump in to end it. Many times both sides are so exhausted...they just stop!

PS: I have many "real streeting fighting vides" that I study, and over 100 martial art videos (not just movies)...that I study and try to learn from....

The kids ask a question and I fire a question back at them....and wanted to know how others feel about this?

NOT an expert here....still learning.....(everyone knows how runners do in a marthon...those who "hit the wall" and can go past it....MIND against the body game)....win-win...

Tom cruise in "Samurai" .....never quits...still loss but never quits....

Many years ago a Black belt from Korea, American soldier tranfer to Hawaii, came to our Tang Soo Do Class in Hawaii...I was just a white belt than...we spar in every class...This new guy would hit very hard to everyone...Our Sensi saw this..but kept quite....until the Black belt from our school starting sparring this new guy.......each time the hits grew harder on each side.....

Than it ending in full on fight....both sides fought like a street brawl...NO signs of any martial techniques.....Sensi stop the fight, the other guy never came back. (Our Sensi is a good friend of Bob Walls) from "Enter the Dragon" ...came by our school once!

OK....this is the first time I saw two black belt fight.....NO signs of any martial art techniques...just an ALL out BRAWL...like you see on the streets...than they ended up the ground holding on to each other and trying to hit each other at the same time.....( I was disappointed...but soon learn...this is how most fights ARE!)

Each of us will experience his or her world of what fights are?

Martial arts...has many paths...to learning.....NO longer a sheep following....LOOKING for NEW PATHS of learning.........

Martial arts is NOT A CLOSE DOOR....so many new things will be learn and found....just an opinion here..

 

[jks9199]

Is it too far off topic to pose this question?

Which is the greater danger, falling prey to the adrenaline dump (reduction in fine motor skills, tunnel vision, etc), or "running out of gas"?

They go hand-in-hand. The adrenaline dump will exhaust you as it energizes you -- but you won't necessarily feel it at first. It's like opening the throttle on a motor to full; you'll move, but you'll fly through the gas too. And it tears up the motor. Higher fitness will leave you better able to handle the adrenaline dump, with less stress on your body.

In my experience, the longest 6 minutes of my life have been the 3 rounds of amatuer kickboxing fights. Each round seems to last an eternity... But, in the real deal, I've found myself so concerned with everything going on (protecting myself, controlling the suspect, tracking what's around me, and more) that I don't notice the time passing, nor do I notice the exhaustion. Until the shakes hit me a few minutes later.

 

[terryl965]

S_L endurance is a blessing in a real fight but knowledge is danger to an opponet, the more you know the better you are. Keep training and hopefully that day will never come in the street for you.

 

[punisher73]

When people ask me honestly about the value of Karate, my first reply is usually that karate teaches you to throw powerful strikes, using less energy. I did boxing before karate, and I don't know if I can really punch harder than I did then, but in instead of throwing a hook, I can throw a hooking palm, using 1/3 of the energy I did back then.

So, a lot of my personal Karate training involves conserving energy, without sacrificing power.

Punisher, how long does it take to recharge your anaerobic, or Lactic "tank"? That is, does conditioning help you recover faster "between rounds".

I agree, that you learn to conserve energy and learn how to throw harder strikes better using "less energy". My point was that the body has a very finite tank for running at top performance. Learning good technique and conserving that can extend it to some degree. I think the value of training the lactic engergy system is that it helps your body run more efficiently during the activity by removing waste products and getting more oxygen into the blood/muscles. But, for combat athletes, yes it would help you recover faster as well.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I have a buddy...honest to goodness bad-****. Dynamite shape. Never lost a fiight in years, and looked for them. Great big strong guy, power-lifter, kick-boxed at Benny the Jets stable (jet center), wrestled in college, purpled under the Gracies before the UFC ever took off, and blacked under Norris. Never fricking lost, because he always had one of two things going for him: Better technology, or better conditioning.

So he gets in this roadside brawl one day, with what's basically a technical and conditioning twin. They go at it, stop fighting to breathe a bit, go at it some more, agree to stop and breathe some more, and this goes on for almost 15 minutes. Both matching in stand-up and ground (on hoods of cars and gravel on the side of the road). Panting, they agree that each has never met there match before today, and while it's been interesting, they would each rather just be on their way. Shook hands over grins through bloody lips & noses, scraped knees & elbows, and went their respective ways.

15 very long minutes, I assure you. Train for endurance.

D.

 

[thardey]

I have a buddy...honest to goodness bad-****. Dynamite shape. Never lost a fiight in years, and looked for them. Great big strong guy, power-lifter, kick-boxed at Benny the Jets stable (jet center), wrestled in college, purpled under the Gracies before the UFC ever took off, and blacked under Norris. Never fricking lost, because he always had one of two things going for him: Better technology, or better conditioning.

So he gets in this roadside brawl one day, with what's basically a technical and conditioning twin. They go at it, stop fighting to breathe a bit, go at it some more, agree to stop and breathe some more, and this goes on for almost 15 minutes. Both matching in stand-up and ground (on hoods of cars and gravel on the side of the road). Panting, they agree that each has never met there match before today, and while it's been interesting, they would each rather just be on their way. Shook hands over grins through bloody lips & noses, scraped knees & elbows, and went their respective ways.

15 very long minutes, I assure you. Train for endurance.

D.

That is too cool. It's almost too cool to believe. But I'll remember it as a true story, just 'cause I want to!

 

[still learning]

I agree, that you learn to conserve energy and learn how to throw harder strikes better using "less energy". My point was that the body has a very finite tank for running at top performance. Learning good technique and conserving that can extend it to some degree. I think the value of training the lactic engergy system is that it helps your body run more efficiently during the activity by removing waste products and getting more oxygen into the blood/muscles. But, for combat athletes, yes it would help you recover faster as well.

Hello, This is one of the most NOT understood part of Karate.

Many of us train or train others...the major goal is teach our bodies how to move, strike, defend with the right muscles,breathe, using the RIGHT ENERGY.

You remember when first learning....to punch...be relax until impact!
Same goes for all of movements in the body! For most of us it may take a life time to learn using the muscles, when to relax, when to use tense, and so on.....

Long distance runners....can go for 100's miles...because they know which muscles to use and which ones to relax..(My brother-in-law did FIVE -100 miles Utra-marthon) on the Big Island, HILO to Wamiea..years ago...had to change clothes several times too!

Glad this point was raise! .........Aloha (Please Relax-help when using the bathroom? )

PS: That maybe one of the reason the "Old Master" can do well into their age..........

Our Professor had two hip replacements, does not run or move fast...BUT if gets a hold of you....you can feel the power in his body...likes to call people up to demostrate if they ask questions.....squeese' a ball 600 times in each hand a day.....

 

[newGuy12]

That is too cool. It's almost too cool to believe. But I'll remember it as a true story, just 'cause I want to!

I was thinking the exact same thing myself last night!

 

[still learning]

Hello, The point of using the right muscles everytime is something that may take a long time to learn.

Just the other day I was trying to open a Wal-Mart, Sams-Sparkling water beverage...sometimes it is so hard to open.....I found myself squeesing my teeth or jaw area...caught myself.. relax the mouth and continune to open the bottle. Tencing the wrong body parts. Wasting energy?

We all know fights can be short and quick....sometimes it can be long and on going too......

Bruce Lee "known for the fight with the chinese fighter" because they did not want Bruce Lee teaching NON-Chinese people. ...afterward realize the fight took a very long time, (I think it was over 3-4 minutes) long....

"Bruce" afterwards ,than became to question "Why" the fight too so long....He study this question very hard and began changing his train methods......it took a real fight for him to realize....the way we train is the way we fight? ...so he made changes to his "way"

For our students....we just reverse the question and ask? ..how long can you last? ....pointing out...endurance is very important...that is one reason we jump rope in every class...We wanted the kids to learn how long they can last with several different methods of a full work out....Aloha (just the endurance part)....getting hit alot will make this shorter...as many of you mention in the above...

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

That is too cool. It's almost too cool to believe. But I'll remember it as a true story, just 'cause I want to!

He and I bounced together for several years, trained at the Gracie Academy at Torrance, and he threw Royces bachelor party. Fun guy. Real guy. What's funny is, he and I hadn't spoken since Royce's come-back loss in the UFC about a year back. He called me yesterday to let me know he's gettin' married. Bummer is, he's in Florida now, and I'm in California, so it looks like I'm missing the wedding.

Ah, Yorick. I knew him well. A fellow of infinite jest. But now, he's as good as dead to the rest of the world as a ring slips over a finger like a chokehold by an anaconda...[insert "Another one bites the dust" by Queen]

D.

 

[Sukerkin]

S_L whilst I know what you're trying to say when you use the phrase "The way we train is the way we fight", it's not really true in the physical sense that it's so often mistakenly applied.

What that aphorism is meant to allude to is more the attitude of mind and intensity of visualisation rather than mere muscle movement. Given that my art involves the use of swords, that's probably for the best .

 

[Blotan Hunka]

I think the phrase needs to be altered to "train like you are in a fight"...currently I think many people "train the way I want the fight to go". (on shot and over) which takes the opponent out of the equation.