How do you pressure test your art? (If you do?)

[Guy Preston]

OK, last night in class we did some Goshinjutsu pressure testing.

Using sparring mitts (that leave your hands open) and boxing headgear (With a face cage - we've all got to go to work in the morning right??) we had uke throw non stop punches, full force to the face of tori, who then had to get the situation under control.

We vary this, but last night Tori had to get the situation under control, without striking back themselves, only using arm locks, throws, etc..

The idea behind the above is....

• It's a safe way to practice against full contact attacks
• Being hit in the head wearing the head gear, gives the feeling of being hit, the jolt to your head, the bombardment of punches, etc - so if hit for real it's not a completely alien experience.
• It demonstrates the different effects on the mind of the above, and gets students used to having to think on their feet, while potentially being bombarded with punches, etc...
• Builds confidence of being able to handle a situation if needed, hopefully this will reduce any amount of hesitation if confronted with a real life attack.
• For uke in this instance (but sometimes both) gets them used to hitting someone full pelt, so again in a real life scenario if needed it's not an alien experience.
• The ban on strikes for Tori last night, made them have to really offbalance to throw, or lock, etc...

Our normal Jujutsu training is far more formal, with kata training and randori, but we like to do the above kind of thing at times to put some relevance to what we do. I find it also helps students understand some of the finer point of kata, after they've had it go wrong with a non compliant attacker and have to re visit the spacing, position, etc....


So, to the point... What sort of methods do you use to pressure test your system??

I'm talking more for self defence here than for sport/competition, purely because people doing competition styles actually get to pressure test their system in competition regularly - so if you do a competition style, do you do anything different in relation to pressure testing for self defence??

If you don't pressure test at all, what's the reasoning for this? (Don't think it's necessary, more interested in learning the art for it's own sake rather than self defence, etc...)

 

[jasonbrinn]

Nice work. Thank you for the post. Seems like a great start and a true honest approach to seeking truth in combat.

In my art we don't "pressure test" in training any of the techniques. We do have something similar in relation to very basic strikes and threat deescalation training but nothing that includes actual techniques.

I applaud your effort.


Happy Holidays,


Jason Brinn

 

[K-man]

We do a similar thing in that we use the light pads and full headgear. We punch and try to avoid being punched until we have the opportunity to effect a lock or takedown. It's still not real as we don't try to take out the knees, but it's as real as you can get away from the real thing. As you say, you get used to being hit so the shock factor is out of the equation. You also get used to someone in your face as it is all done at grappling range, not sparring distance. :asian:

 

[K-man]

What I should have added is that we take short sequences from kata and work out a flow drill. Then we test it against an opponent who generally makes the first move. You then move into the drill which finishes if the opponent fails to defend. If your opponent manages to defend, generally because he knows what's coming next, then you move on to the next part of your Bunkai. NONE of the attacker's moves are choreographed except for he first strike, and even then, sometimes we just allow any attack so you have to improvise a way to enter the drill. We normally don't use the headgear and gloves to pressure test these Bunkai because of the risk of injury if you play it too hard. It soon becomes obvious if a technique is likely to fail. If that is the case, we will discuss the combination and offer suggestions that may allow it to work. If it does, fine. If it doesn't we throw it out and start again. Ultimately it is being tested against strong resistance and your partner is always looking for ways to make it fail. If it passes these pressure test we encourage the person who 'owns' the Bunkai to keep drilling it. :asian:

 

[Cyriacus]

Questions:

1; Was the uke able to grab you with one hand to hit you with the other?
2; Did you start out in a stance of some sort, squared up with uke?
3; Did these mitts allow for straight, swinging, downward, upward, and hammerfist-ish strikes?
4; Was uke allowed to try and crush your neck with both hands?
5; Was uke able to, with the gloves, get a decent headlock, or were they too bulky?
6; Was uke conditioned to be aggressive and angry, and possessing of the genuine intent to hurt tori, or was he just told to get in there and throw full force hits while tori practiced his defenses?
7; Was uke allowed to grapple?
8; In your genuine opinion, was uke aggressive and hostile enough to be comparable to someone who genuinely wants to hurt you?
9; Was uke a practitioner or your system, or someone whos muscle memory isnt ingrained with that method of movement, regardless of technical movements?

Im not putting down this method of pressure testing, but i am advising you not to sell it too high. Lemme see if i can dig up a video, where two people in face cages and gloves are thrown at each other whilst exhausted from the systems exercise/fitness work to practice their 'techniques'.

EDIT: Im mostly curious. Because if uke was allowed to, and mentally willing to do most of the above, swell!

 

[K-man]

Questions:

1; Was the uke able to grab you with one hand to hit you with the other?
Yes
2; Did you start out in a stance of some sort, squared up with uke?
Not really. Uke is just asked to attack.
3; Did these mitts allow for straight, swinging, downward, upward, and hammerfist-ish strikes?
Yes
4; Was uke allowed to try and crush your neck with both hands?
Yes
5; Was uke able to, with the gloves, get a decent headlock, or were they too bulky?
Yes
6; Was uke conditioned to be aggressive and angry, and possessing of the genuine intent to hurt tori, or was he just told to get in there and throw full force hits while tori practiced his defenses?
Not as aggressive as a real situation but that is difficult to reproduce.
7; Was uke allowed to grapple?
Yes
8; In your genuine opinion, was uke aggressive and hostile enough to be comparable to someone who genuinely wants to hurt you?
No, but I don't believe that negates the value of the exercise.
9; Was uke a practitioner or your system, or someone whos muscle memory isnt ingrained with that method of movement, regardless of technical movements?
Uke for us is almost always a practitioner of our system. If anything that helps to make the technique or strike harder because a trained person can anticipate a technique.
Im not putting down this method of pressure testing, but i am advising you not to sell it too high. Lemme see if i can dig up a video, where two people in face cages and gloves are thrown at each other whilst exhausted from the systems exercise/fitness work to practice their 'techniques'.

EDIT: Im mostly curious. Because if uke was allowed to, and mentally willing to do most of the above, swell!

Not sure if this question is to Ninniku or me but ...

:asian:

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

We spar, and a couple variations of something else that im not sure if it is 'pressure-testing' or just a different way of practicing.

The first variation of the something else is "no-minds", where we have the opponent throw a short combination of punches/kicks and we have to react, and the second its done or another uke thinks its done, from wherever they are they throw their own combination that we once again have to react to (And they throw the combination with the intent to hit with a strike, and hurt with it, sometimes succeeding sometimes not). We also do something called the 'gauntlet' where the lights are shut off and its meant to simulate a dark alley, other students are lined up on both sides of a lane and you have to walk through them. Random ones attack, sometimes with 'weapons', sometimes without, and you have to react accordingly. The last main thing we do in this vein is stand in the middle of a circle of other students with our eyes closed (sometimes we do open eyes but not often), then random student/s grab us. When we feel the grab, we are allowed to open our eyes, and we have to react accordingly.

As far as sparring, we don't do 'competition sparring'. Sometimes we do point sparring, but we also spend a lot of sparring nights facing other students where we are in a certain situation and one student has the advantage over another. Most common is that one student has weapons and the other doesnt, sometimes the lights are completely off, sometimes the match starts with one person already backed up against a corner, etc.

 

[Cyriacus]

Not sure if this question is to Ninniku or me but ...

:asian:

It was to Ninniku, but i dont mind knowing I just find that alot of pressure testing ive seen tends to be systemised, and often doesnt involve common forms of aggressive assault, and just end up being someone marching forward swinging their arms in an attempt to emulate the idea of what they think a thug looks like.
Im glad you dont have that problem

Also, the last two were trick questions. You answered wisely.

 

[Uncle]

We do chi sau in varying degrees of pressure and mobility as the student advances and eventually into sparring.

 

[Guy Preston]

OK, let's see...

1; Was the uke able to grab you with one hand to hit you with the other?
The other night no, as uke had heavy sparring gloves on - at other times yes - we change it up different times when we do it.

2; Did you start out in a stance of some sort, squared up with uke?
We also vary this, but the other night this wasn't done from stance, often it will be done as part of an escalation confrontation simulation.

3; Did these mitts allow for straight, swinging, downward, upward, and hammerfist-ish strikes?
Yes, the headgear is pretty good too for dealing with these.

4; Was uke allowed to try and crush your neck with both hands?
The other night no, as we were concentrating on punches, at other times we do incorporate these kind of attacks.

5; Was uke able to, with the gloves, get a decent headlock, or were they too bulky?
They could probably have if they'd tried, but we were focusing on punching in this instance, at other times see the above answer.

6; Was uke conditioned to be aggressive and angry, and possessing of the genuine intent to hurt tori, or was he just told to get in there and throw full force hits while tori practiced his defenses?
Varies from person to person to be honest, the idea is aggressive attack to simulate a real fight, but people personality's also come into play - my dojo is fairly recently opened so students are low grade level currently too and that has to be taken into consideration.

7; Was uke allowed to grapple?
The other night wasn't abe to because of the gloves they were using, but other times both are set up so grappling is possible.

8; In your genuine opinion, was uke aggressive and hostile enough to be comparable to someone who genuinely wants to hurt you?
Again, varied person to person, some yes, others not as much - but you have to start somewhere...

9; Was uke a practitioner or your system, or someone whos muscle memory isnt ingrained with that method of movement, regardless of technical movements?
Uke was a practitioner of our system, but that kind of loses relevance as we train traditional style Jujutsu, whereas the strikes Uke was throwing were more like western boxing, or street style - so the system doesn't ingrain that muscle memory.

Im not putting down this method of pressure testing, but i am advising you not to sell it too high. Lemme see if i can dig up a video, where two people in face cages and gloves are thrown at each other whilst exhausted from the systems exercise/fitness work to practice their 'techniques'.

EDIT: Im mostly curious. Because if uke was allowed to, and mentally willing to do most of the above, swell![/QUOTE]


I don't sell it high at all to be honest, our main system is transmitted and practiced through kata and randori, this is something I've only recently introduced hence the post asking about other ways people pressure test...

The idea for me is that as skill levels increase, so will the ferocity of attack from Uke, as I said above, we're still talking about low grade levels at the moment in my club.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Things I've tried:

Sparring/randori - this can be light, medium, or hard-contact and can involve some or all of the following: punches, kicks, clinching, knees, takedowns, groundwork, submissions - depending on what the focus is. The upside is testing your skills against someone who is genuinely trying to beat you. The downside is the dueling mentality that such practice tends to bring out.

Sparring with asymmetric goals or rules. For example, uke puts on gloves and tries to land punches while tori is only allowed to grapple. Or starting from a cooperative takedown, uke is trying to get back to his feet and get away, while tori is trying to hold him down and pin or submit him. Or one person is trying to get to an exit while one or more opponents try to keep him from getting away. This helps break students out of the dueling mentality I mentioned above.

Pattern recognition drills. Working within a limited, semi-free-form "sparring" context, one partner will periodically feed one or more pre-determined specific cues which the other partner will attempt to recognize and respond to with the appropriate technique. For example if you are working on a particular defense against a kick, both partners might put on boxing gloves and engage in light punch sparring. Periodically the feeder will toss in the particular kick(s) involved and the receiver needs to recognize that it's coming in time to perform the particular counter being drilled.

Scenario simulation drills. We used to do these periodically with an old training partner of mine who was a police officer. They could cover anything from the setup leading to a mugging to the interviews with the police in the aftermath. More often than not, these simulations would not end up inolving the use of any martial arts "techniques" (although you didn't always know beforehand), but the psychological pressure could be more intense than hard sparring.

 

[WC_lun]

Full force drills after a student is to that point. Limited full force "sparring" including takedowns, striking, and ground fighting. I say limited because if a person is put in a very bad position, both parties need to recognize this and act accirdingly. This is where experience, knowledge, and respect for each other are of paramount importancce.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

So, to the point... What sort of methods do you use to pressure test your system??

At work. I've been a Deputy for 22 years now, E.P. Agent before that and military before that. I've stopped counting, but I've had over three hundred uses-of-force against voilent, resisting felons and general knuckle-heads. This is how I've pressure tested our system. It has provided direct feedback on what to discard and what to keep. If we haven't used it in a real situation, we don't/won't teach it. Everything from striking to joint locks (my specialty), to throws, to cavity pressing (again, my specialty) etc. That is really the best litmus test as to if it works on real people in real situation.

 

[Guy Preston]

Of

At work. I've been a Deputy for 22 years now, E.P. Agent before that and military before that. I've stopped counting, but I've had over three hundred uses-of-force against voilent, resisting felons and general knuckle-heads. This is how I've pressure tested our system. It has provided direct feedback on what to discard and what to keep. If we haven't used it in a real situation, we don't/won't teach it. Everything from striking to joint locks (my specialty), to throws, to cavity pressing (again, my specialty) etc. That is really the best litmus test as to if it works on real people in real situation.

I don't agree 100%

While I don't think anyone would or could argue that there is no substitute for the real thing, I don't think that takes away from people who aren't regularly put into violent situations or that they can't test what they know or can do effectively - that's what everyone who's replied to this thread has been doing.

I've had my fair share of fights, and work as a bouncer these days, and have come up against a variety of scenarios, but I've always found I revert to a core few techniques every time as they work for me and fit the situation. The exact same thing happens if pressure testing so it does give an indication.

I teach Jujutsu, I could never claim to have used every part of the system in a real situation - but that doesn't mean it wouldn't work, it just means that in a real situation you don't have time to experiment, and can't risk it going wrong. Pressure testing helps you to see what else may work for you, in an environment where you can take a risk.

Do you teach Kong Soo Do? Or have you developed your own combative system? If it's the former have you really used every part of the system for real? Every strike, every kick, every piece of footwork, every block, every throw, every kamae, etc, etc.... If so you should film yourself in action, would be great to see, like an Expendables movie!!!

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I don't agree 100%

That's okay, if we all agreed on everything all the time it would be a boring discussion board

While I don't think anyone would or could argue that there is no substitute for the real thing, I don't think that takes away from people who aren't regularly put into violent situations or that they can't test what they know or can do effectively...

A valid consideration. Yes, there is no substitute for the real thing, particularly in regards to pressure testing a methodology, principle or specific technique. This allows us to determine how it would be used while under duress, with an adrenaline dump affecting things such as motor skill dexterity, visual/auditory perception, attacker/defender factors etc. Ideally, it would be done on an individual, case-by-case basis. That of course isn't advisable or practical. Not everyone is in L.E., Corrections, Bouncer, Event Security etc where they would be routinely in a position to go hands on. And of course we don't want students going around picking fights just to test out the cool new thing they learned. A while back we had a thread that talked about something related to this topic. My position was; 'how do you know what you've learned will work'? There are several options to consider;

• You've used the methodology, principle, technique in question in a realistic altercation and know it will work.
• Someone in the lineage of the system has used the methodology, principle or technique in question in a realistic altercation and knows it will work, and further, can teach it or has taught it in a way to make it generally useable by others.
• No one in the lineage has used it and its being taught simply because someone up the chain tossed it in and no one thought to question its validity (or dared to question it). In otherwords, the methodology, principle or technique is being taught by theory rather than by experience.

I've had my fair share of fights, and work as a bouncer these days, and have come up against a variety of scenarios, but I've always found I revert to a core few techniques every time as they work for me and fit the situation.

Bingo! We all will revert to a small core of things in our 'tool box' that will work for us in a crisis situation. Anything beyond this is simply informational overload that will cause hesitation at a critial time.

Do you teach Kong Soo Do?

Yes sir, I teach Mu Shin Kwan Kong Soo Do.

Or have you developed your own combative system?

MSK KSD has been developed over the last 37 years from various arts that came before it. But then, all martial arts have been developed in the same way when we think about it. It includes specific elements from Korean, Japanese, Okinawan, Chinese, Canadian, Israeli, British and American systems. These elements have been distilled down into a single unified outline based on gross motor skill sets.

If it's the former have you really used every part of the system for real? Every strike, every kick, every piece of footwork, every block, every throw, every kamae, etc, etc....

If I had to put a number on it, I'd have to conservatively estimate that I've used perhaps 90% of the total system personally. Some principles/techniques multiple times as their in my personal tool box. The system as a whole was also developed with my instructor (retired NYPD) and my retired partner (former Deputy) so as a whole, every piece of it has been used by one of us. Most of it by all of us multiple times. We have a single kata (form) with 25 core movements. Each movement is a skeleton that is tailored to fit each student individually based upon their strengths, weaknesses, injuries etc. We also have a personal database of those that we've taught (mostly fellow high liabilty professionals) that have use it themselves in the performance of their duties.

Good topic

 

[Guy Preston]

Sounds interesting, I'll admit my ignorance, I'd never actually heard of Kong Soo Do before reading your post, I have something new to read up on now, thanks!!!

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Sounds interesting, I'll admit my ignorance, I'd never actually heard of Kong Soo Do before reading your post, I have something new to read up on now, thanks!!!

Kong Soo Do simply means 'Empty Hand Way'. It is the Korean way of saying 'Karate Do'. While there are some sport-only versions of KSD in Korea, there are a number of self-defense focused school here in the U.S. and Australia.

My sig line is a link to who we are and what we do. MSK KSD has a couple of pages in there at the end.

 

[Cyriacus]

OK, let's see...

1; Was the uke able to grab you with one hand to hit you with the other?
The other night no, as uke had heavy sparring gloves on - at other times yes - we change it up different times when we do it.

Right now this isnt really an issue, but please consider that youre meant to be pressure testing. And plenty of people grab and smack.

2; Did you start out in a stance of some sort, squared up with uke?
We also vary this, but the other night this wasn't done from stance, often it will be done as part of an escalation confrontation simulation.

Good.

3; Did these mitts allow for straight, swinging, downward, upward, and hammerfist-ish strikes?
Yes, the headgear is pretty good too for dealing with these.

Good.

4; Was uke allowed to try and crush your neck with both hands?
The other night no, as we were concentrating on punches, at other times we do incorporate these kind of attacks.

And now we come round to something. I thought this was meant to be pressure testing - Not a punch defense drill. Choking is a common form of assault. In this drill, you knew well ahead of time you werent going to have to worry about that.

5; Was uke able to, with the gloves, get a decent headlock, or were they too bulky?
They could probably have if they'd tried, but we were focusing on punching in this instance, at other times see the above answer.

They were focused on punching. So in your 'pressure test', the other person was pretty much just walking in there with a predefined motive. All they could really do is punch. Thats hardly pressure testing, when so many other things can and do happen.

6; Was uke conditioned to be aggressive and angry, and possessing of the genuine intent to hurt tori, or was he just told to get in there and throw full force hits while tori practiced his defenses?
Varies from person to person to be honest, the idea is aggressive attack to simulate a real fight, but people personality's also come into play - my dojo is fairly recently opened so students are low grade level currently too and that has to be taken into consideration.

Thats fine. But the question was a bit tricky. Its next to impossible to emulate anger in a drill.

7; Was uke allowed to grapple?
The other night wasn't abe to because of the gloves they were using, but other times both are set up so grappling is possible.

So again: In the pressure test, only striking was possible. No choking, no headlocks, no grappling. Probably no headbutts either. So when you practice with grappling, do you use less striking?

8; In your genuine opinion, was uke aggressive and hostile enough to be comparable to someone who genuinely wants to hurt you?
Again, varied person to person, some yes, others not as much - but you have to start somewhere...

That was another trick question, since youre not trying to kill each other

9; Was uke a practitioner or your system, or someone whos muscle memory isnt ingrained with that method of movement, regardless of technical movements?
Uke was a practitioner of our system, but that kind of loses relevance as we train traditional style Jujutsu, whereas the strikes Uke was throwing were more like western boxing, or street style - so the system doesn't ingrain that muscle memory.

I was about to say correct when you started saying it lacked relevance - Then you said he was throwing strikes more like boxing or street style. Any style ingrains muscle memory. But people tend to emulate street style by swinging semi bent arms, and boxing by jamming their arms straight out. Neither of those are really accurate depictions. Theyre emulations. And theyre being limited to emulating it in that manner.

I don't sell it high at all to be honest, our main system is transmitted and practiced through kata and randori, this is something I've only recently introduced hence the post asking about other ways people pressure test...

The idea for me is that as skill levels increase, so will the ferocity of attack from Uke, as I said above, we're still talking about low grade levels at the moment in my club.

By the sounds of it, and please dont take offense, as far as pressure testing goes not selling it high sounds like a good idea.
You can get to higher belts, but without changing the method, you wont fix anything. The format youre describing is extremely limited, and doesnt give you much ground to pressure test much more than punch defense, and thats a very narrow array of possible attacks, when in a real situation, there would be alot of other things to consider.

On the ground, for example, do you ever have one person mounted on top with one hand choking the throat and the other punching the head?

And even in the way youre doing it now, do you ever start with the attacker behind you, or to the side?

That being said, as a punch defense drill, sounds great

 

[Guy Preston]

Right now this isnt really an issue, but please consider that youre meant to be pressure testing. And plenty of people grab and smack.
Good.

Good.


And now we come round to something. I thought this was meant to be pressure testing - Not a punch defense drill. Choking is a common form of assault. In this drill, you knew well ahead of time you werent going to have to worry about that.


They were focused on punching. So in your 'pressure test', the other person was pretty much just walking in there with a predefined motive. All they could really do is punch. Thats hardly pressure testing, when so many other things can and do happen.


Thats fine. But the question was a bit tricky. Its next to impossible to emulate anger in a drill.


So again: In the pressure test, only striking was possible. No choking, no headlocks, no grappling. Probably no headbutts either. So when you practice with grappling, do you use less striking?


That was another trick question, since youre not trying to kill each other


I was about to say correct when you started saying it lacked relevance - Then you said he was throwing strikes more like boxing or street style. Any style ingrains muscle memory. But people tend to emulate street style by swinging semi bent arms, and boxing by jamming their arms straight out. Neither of those are really accurate depictions. Theyre emulations. And theyre being limited to emulating it in that manner.



By the sounds of it, and please dont take offense, as far as pressure testing goes not selling it high sounds like a good idea.
You can get to higher belts, but without changing the method, you wont fix anything. The format youre describing is extremely limited, and doesnt give you much ground to pressure test much more than punch defense, and thats a very narrow array of possible attacks, when in a real situation, there would be alot of other things to consider.

On the ground, for example, do you ever have one person mounted on top with one hand choking the throat and the other punching the head?

And even in the way youre doing it now, do you ever start with the attacker behind you, or to the side?

That being said, as a punch defense drill, sounds great

I agree with all you've said...

As with the answers above, we change it up all the time - sometimes concentrating on specific things (like punching drills) other times free for all. I still keep it quite 'safe' at the mo as inexperienced students, but will up the anti as we go on, lot's to ponder, thanks!!

Often, depends on what safety equipment is available at the time - last week we had only enough to make it work for Uke to Punch, and Tori to defend without punching... so did that.

It's not the primary focus of what we do, it's something we do on the 5th lesson of the month, wherever there are 5 weeks within a month...

 

[Cyriacus]

I agree with all you've said...

As with the answers above, we change it up all the time - sometimes concentrating on specific things (like punching drills) other times free for all. I still keep it quite 'safe' at the mo as inexperienced students, but will up the anti as we go on, lot's to ponder, thanks!!

Often, depends on what safety equipment is available at the time - last week we had only enough to make it work for Uke to Punch, and Tori to defend without punching... so did that.

It's not the primary focus of what we do, it's something we do on the 5th lesson of the month, wherever there are 5 weeks within a month...

Yeah. First off, im glad youre able to read all that without getting defensive.

Inexperienced students are the best if you can convince them to really go for it. Its more realistic, believe it or not. You just need to get them to actually get in there and go for it though.

For safety equipment, all you really need is head gear and some kind of gloves so the head gear doesnt hurt your hands.
Optionally, you could just slap with the flat of your fingers, since then you could punch, grapple, kick, whatever. It wouldnt be as realistic in terms of the hitting, but youd be able to cover alot more.
And in these free for alls, again, the rules might allow a free for all, but is it actually a free for all in terms of what happens? If that makes sense.

But, the fact its not the primary focus is all the more reason to make it worth doing, wouldnt it?