Measuring time in a real fight? ..can you last?

[still learning]

Hello, The another day we were talking about how long a fight last?

One way we try to answer this was by measuring how long you can last...free style, full power punches and kicks, and moving around like you would in a real fight, non-stop action till you quit, by yourself in the center of the ring...just go full on, full power...make believe you are fighting several people. NOT USING A REAL FIGHT TO MEASURE)

Start and time until they quit?

One more way we said is to drop to ground and get up quickly at full speed, non stopping until you quit.

Maybe one more way is see how long you can jump rope at full speed on the clock?

Or sprints with the touch the floor and back at full speed?

Any ideas to measure how long you would last in a real full on fight? without getting into a real fight?

(on a full stomach)...will it effect the lenght of time?

Aloha (211 degrees...water will not boil....at 212 degrees water will boil)

PS: time is always measure "near" the end of work......oop's time to go!

 

[Sukerkin]

It's an interesting question. I think perhaps you need to add an extra variable to codify how 'serious' you are being in the fight as that has a huge effect on how long the fight lasts. A 'slug-fest' a la fictional 'John Wayne' Western fights would go on a lot longer than one where a martial artist was more concerned with staying alive than the 'conscience effect' of severe damage handed out to the opponents.

In my case I faced three-on-one odds and the fight lasted less than one second per person, so I really have no idea as to what my stamina would be in a fight where I restricted the violence of what what I did (or, indeed, how the panic would effect things if I broke someones leg and they got back up !).

 

[michaeledward]

Mr. Planas has a cute phrase that he uses occasionally. I like to think of it as an unneeded goal.

"Every fight should be a two-hit fight."
"I hit you."
"You hit the floor."


With this as a goal, stamina is not an issue; Correct use of weapons and targets is important, as is correct use of weapon destruction.

I hope I never find out.

Mike

 

[Cirdan]

free style, full power punches and kicks, and moving around like you would in a real fight, non-stop action till you quit

Why would I move around? Having that luxury i would move AYAY, get the hell out of there. Stamina is better spent running than slugging it out.

 

[terryl965]

S_L you have so much to learn. I mean really how long can you last in a real fight? You or anybody else until the fight is over one way or the other.Standing in the middle of a ring by yoursrlf throwing punches and kicks means absolutely nothingcompare to a real fight.

Have you eer been in one? I would say no by all of your post.

Have you ever really witness a real fight? Same answer probaly no.

Do you have a clue what really goes on in a real fight?


If you do you would have a better understanding to your question. Have a nice day.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

One way we try to answer this was by measuring how long you can last...free style, full power punches and kicks, and moving around like you would in a real fight, non-stop action till you quit, by yourself in the center of the ring...just go full on, full power...make believe you are fighting several people. NOT USING A REAL FIGHT TO MEASURE)

This shows how long you will last practicing a "Kata type form.

One more way we said is to drop to ground and get up quickly at full speed, non stopping until you quit.

This shows how long it takes for you to get up from the ground.

Maybe one more way is see how long you can jump rope at full speed on the clock?

This shows how long you can go jump rope.

The point is the only way to see how long you will last in a fight is to well fight everything else is speculation. By that point you will not care how long you last you will only concern will be surivival.

 

[newGuy12]

By that point you will not care how long you last you will only concern will be surivival.

Is it too far off topic to pose this question?

Which is the greater danger, falling prey to the adrenaline dump (reduction in fine motor skills, tunnel vision, etc), or "running out of gas"?

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

As an idiot who has been in way more than his fair share of fights, I'll chime in my 2 centavos.

I think he's onto something. I've had some fights that were the 2-hit wonders...1 or 2 shots, bad guy goes down, and I'm left standing there feeling like a karate god. Unfortunately, I've had way more of the opposite. Under the influence of adrenaline, the calm, eay-going parts of the brain that manage things like targeting, path/line, application of principles, etc., shut down. The cognitive piece remains, which just makes it more frustrating: You can see the opportunities, know that you know how to capitalize on them, but just can't remember in time to do crap about it.

Feels like one of those nightmares where you run for the door, but the hall just keeps getting longer. In the fight, by the time you find all your parts and get them on the same page, the precision of the moment is often gone. That's when mental AND physical stamina come into play. The ability to, as the book title says, feel the fear and do it anyway. Except, with parts of the brain inhibiting under the effects of endocrine rushes, it gets harder. And your heart pounds like you just ran 100 yard dash in 3 seconds flat. And he's swinging on you just as visciously as you are on him. And you can't quite get a full breath, and you can't ask for a time out. And while you're trynig to pound on him, he's also swinging on you, and with the law of averages being what they are, some get through...ring your melon, shake your vision, make you have to re-acquire the target again, during which time he's hit you again.

And that's if there aren't also buddies backing him up, taking shots at your melon. Add a slippery surface like the wet floor of a bar, beers spilled in the melee, and now you're slipping while swinging, and so is he.

No better way to get an amazing cardio challenge. Ed Parker, the founder of American Kenpo, said in one of his books...2 guys, equal knowledge, speed, strength, experience, etc., the guy in better shape is gonna win. Whenever I read folks talking about what I call "expert finishes" (2 hits), I have to assume they either don't fight, or else pick their opponents carefully...walk away from the muscled tattoo ex-convicts with facial scars and no neck, and wait for a yuppy college boy to brawl with so they can take the easy win, and chalk it up to supporting their now-informed theories. I've stuck it out and brawled with the convicts with knives and no necks, and I'll tell you that combat is chaotic, hard, and more physically challenging than one can imagine, and that if you don't have the cardio to support the instantaneous rise in rapid pulse rate and breathing that accompanies it, you're screwed.

Best Regards,

Dave

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Is it too far off topic to pose this question?

Which is the greater danger, falling prey to the adrenaline dump (reduction in fine motor skills, tunnel vision, etc), or "running out of gas"?

Running out of gas is part of adrenaline dump. More work requires more energy, and the adrenaline rush seriously ramps up feul consumption and energy needs in the body. Breath and heartrates escalate; muscle energy requirements shoot way up; they are part of the same critter.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

As the out of shape, average 'hobby martial artist' is bound to argue here."im gonna stop the fight in 2-7 seconds, this isnt the ring." Which is their opinion....and their funeral. Its an excuse for being out of shape and/or a rationalization for why they dont exercise beyond watever PT they do in MA class.

Much like the non-grapplers who argue that they dont worry about the ground game because they wont go to the ground.

 

[Adept]

Still Learning has a valid point. High intensity endurance training will better prepare you for an actual 'fight' than a 'normal' class.

Now, I use these terms with trepidation, since a 'fight' is a very broad catch-all term, and what constitutes a normal class will vary wildly from school to school.

Suffice to say that if you're not used to operating at 110% you will suffer more readily from nerves, shock, and the adrenaline dump. Not to mention simply running out of steam.

Is it too far off topic to pose this question?

Which is the greater danger, falling prey to the adrenaline dump (reduction in fine motor skills, tunnel vision, etc), or "running out of gas"?

Really, it depends. As a rule, I'd say it's more important to be prepared for the adrenaline dump, but at the same time I've seen fights drag on for up to half an hour, often in sporadic bursts of violence. They aren't mutually exclusive, and the training for one will often compliment the other. In fact, I'm sure I've read somewhere that a common army trick is to do a hard run right before range practice, as the shortness of breath, shaking hands and tunnel vision of the intense exercise mimic the effects of an adrenaline dump into your system.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Thats why I really like the CrossFit workout Im doing. It concenterates on moving weight at a cardio/aerobic/anerobic pace. The feeling is a lot like rolling around with an opponent and having to perform (another rep/another punch) while you are running out of gas. And when what you need in a fight not going your way is to be able to swing longer and harder than your enemy, as you are each running out of steam, that conditioning could become vital.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Look up Grossmans book "on combat" and refer to the term "stress innoculation".

The military discovered years ago that the best training for "combat" is first, high intensity simulation and second, physical training/exercise. Experiencing fatiuge/exhaustion/pain (the good-exercise type) and forcing out that next mile/set/rep, not only trains your body it trains your mind to persevere and drive on through the pain and fatigue. Theres nothing like fighting but fighting, but thats no excuse from training up to it as close as possible.

 

[Shotochem]

I may be the strange one here but........

I kind of rank conditioning and the ability to take a hit quite high on my list of factors in surviving a fight.

There are quite a few big and out of shape guys who you can pound on quite a bit who just keep on coming.

-Marc-

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

The best way to train for a fight is to try and end it as quickly as possible, but be ready for it to go on far longer than is even likely. The only way to ensure you can pull off a plan of action in a situation as high pressure as a fight, is to have trained in an environment as close to and preferably higher pressure than it.
So long as you are practicing your objective of ending the fight quickly, then adding pressure onto that is only beneficial, and will be what allows you to apply that objective in real life.

 

[Sukerkin]

Why do I get the feeling this will end up with a "Your mileage may vary" conclusion? .

Also, as a side note that relates to noone or no-thread in particular, whilst extreme or pointedly phrased examples are good for bringing a point to light, it's better for discoursive purposes to follow them up with more moderate insights.

I know the 'post' format of Net chat doesn't lend itself well to a more dissertive approach but if we don't try to put a little of both sides in what we type then all you end up with is what we've had of late on many issues of note here:

Poster 1: 'Tis this way
Poster 2: No tisn't
Poster 1: Yes 'tis and you're daft
Poster 2: No tisn't and you're <inappropriate analogy or inference or general snide comment deleted>
Poster 3 -> infinity chime in

and so on.

 

[thardey]

Time to throw in my thoughts from what I've gathered.

I've never been in a fight where someone is maliciously trying to hurt me. But, in order to avoid that, I grill anybody I come across that has, and try to get their honest opinion, not the glorified "macho warrior" crap.

One guy I talked to summed it up:

I talked to this guy once who grew up in some tough New York city, I forgot which, but there were a lot of Italian Immigrants that required the boys to fight for their position. Some of the guys were trained, either boxing, or karate, but this guy wasn't. Yet, he was able to hold his own. I asked him how. he said: "No matter how many times they took me town, I was always able to get back up and keep fighting. I was in better shape than them."

There's a book called Logic of Steel by James LaFond. Unfortunately, it's published by Paladin Press, but hopefully you can get past that. He's not trying to glorify his "deadly art", in fact, he's not trained. He started interviewing people in the Baltimore Area about fights they had been in, and it grew into a book about knife fights, and analyzing them for what happens in the Baltimore culture.

Some of his thoughts in about general fighting:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Duration of Combat
Few of the subjects I interviewed could assign a duration to any struggle that was not resolved instantly. Time perception seems to warp under stress. Usually, when they would say one minute, they would mean 10 seconds. However, by breaking down the incidents act by act and calculating interventions, it became possible to place fights into three broad categories: 63 percent were resolved in less than 10 seconds. Most were highly successful attacks decided within five seconds. The balance involved indecisive third-party interventions, defenders successfully drawing and brandishing a weapon before contact, and trained fighters countering or intercepting untrained attackers, often resulting in a KO.

25 percent lasted 10 seconds to one minute. They were most often successful defenses. The second most common type of mid-duration events were successful attacks against a group, usually by a lone aggressor.

13 percent lasted more than one minute. Most were acts of extreme violence in which the attacker gained the crucial advantage within seconds.
[/FONT]

Just another FYI:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Going to the Ground
Thirty-eight percent of the encounters involved or resulted in grappling. That figure includes clinches (both parties standing), throws (one party down) and floor fights (both down). Almost one-quarter included the use of weapons.

Only 15 percent of the floor fights studied took place between sober men.[/FONT]

It goes back to "the amount of fight in the dog." But I don't think that shadow-boxing, or jumping rope, or even running is a good measure of that.

We do a drill where one person has an "air-pad" (like they use in football practice - it's a pad about 3" thick, and 1'x2'.) The other person attacks that pad as hard as they can, while the defender moves around. Go as long as you can hold your arms up. Eventually, you only have enough strength to throw haymakers to the guts. It only takes about a minute and a half on average for the first time to hit this point. But you improve quickly.

I do like the idea of "up-downs", or "burpees". The muscle use and frustration of getting up multiple times is not something usually taught by kata. (unless you do a lot of throws, but how quickly do you get up?)


I figure, train to finish the fight in 3-4 good blows (not counting the floor), but be prepared to "slug it out" for longer than the other guy, if you can't get away, but once you commit, commit 110%.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

I think the fitness/fighting question is a simple one. Train for the worst. If the "best plan" is to end the fight in 1-2 blows, whats the worst? (talking about hand to hand here..worst could mean shot/stabbed. but fitness helps there too) Assuming that if you only train the "best scenario" that thats whats going to happen in reality is disaster waiting to happen. Fortunately, in civilized society most MA's never really have to "road test" their skills or are involved in what seemed like a "fight" (or for the sake of the ego/storytelling was elevated to a "fight") at the time but was more of a half hearted pushing match with a few closed eyed windmilling punches whlie each prays that their buddies will break it up so each can save face w/o getting pummelled. Unless you have sadistic friends that will let it go on a while to see how you do. (ok now im getting into storytelling myself LOL)

 

[Kacey]

Why do I get the feeling this will end up with a "Your mileage may vary" conclusion? .

I agree. This is, like other discussions that have come up, so situational that there is not a "one size fits all" type of answer. Fights will take as long as they take, and you will either last through them, or you will lose.

There are quite a few factors that can affect the length of a fight:

- how serious are the combatants?
- are the armed? If yes, do they know how to actually use their weapon(s)?
- are the combatants evenly matched?
- are there recreational compounds (drugs, alcohol, illegal compounds) in use on either side? Both sides?
- why is the fight occurring (theft, honor, protecting others, etc.)?
- is escape an option? If so, what will escape require?

And so on...

 

[Sukerkin]

I think the fitness/fighting question is a simple one. Train for the worst. If the "best plan" is to end the fight in 1-2 blows, whats the worst? Assuming that if you only train the "best scenario" that thats whats going to happen in reality is disaster waiting to happen.

A very sound point indeed there, BH. That echoes what my Lau gar instructor used to say all those years ago when I was youthful and athletic . You don't have to be a fitness poster child to win a fight but it doesn't hurt.

In my Lau days, I was very fit but not massively built or strong, so I trained for the 'worst case' with the mind set that if I couldn't avoid it I would just leg it. However, I added in the 'what if' proviso to account for what to do if I couldn't run for some reason.

The upshot of that was that I reasoned that I could thump a big guy all day and not do much more than annoy him if he was blessed with the 'fighter gene', so I worked on defence, good, simple, low level kicks, locks, holds and breaks.

When the day came that the worst case was before me ... well I've told the tale before and I'm not proud of it so I sha'n't repeat it ... I got away is the important bit. The fitness part came in handy too; not for the fight, which was brief, but for the running to the Police station part of the night.

On a general note, good stuff on the subject of 'fights' from thardey above :tup:.