Kicks Speed vs. Punches Speed

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sturmgewehr

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"You don't need to spar with anyone to know about kick speed, you don't need to go to the moon to know about the moon or u don't even need to be a car maker to know how fast a car goes."

Sorry, but, actually, you do need to spar to know about kick/punch speed, you really do. I mean no disrespect by this and I LOVE Fight Science and Sport Science. But if you want to know about swimming you have to get into the water. (Bruce Lee)

No you don't.

There are way more precise devices like Accelerometers and speedometers who collect precise data about the speed and acceleration.

This is not about knowing how to kick, this is not about learning how to kick or executing a kick this is about science and measuring the speed, just because you have been working with something it doesn't mean you can break it down scientifically, there is NO WAY in the world that you could tell the speed of a kick without having a device to measure it.

These people have the devices and they do measure it, these people never claimed to be professionals or boxers they simply measure the speed of the kick, when a police officer catches ur speed doesn't mean he is a car maker or he knows how the car works in details or even how the radar he is holding is made, he is simply measuring the speed, also these people measure the speed of the kick and punch and never claimed they can beat Floyr Mayweather or Petrosyan because they can measure the speed of the kick I mean that is nonsense, they are simply physicians and give us facts about how things work, people that execute the kicks in the videos are professionals while the speedometer measures the speed.

I think u are making this kick thing look like it is rocket science or finding cure for cancer, it is a sport, it is done by training and it is not rocket science and measuring the speed of a kick and punch is RELATIVELY easy.

You seem to ignore the scientific facts and if u do so then there is nothing more left to discuss, if you ignore physics and facts pulled out from a scientific lab then what is there to talk about.

I think u have misunderstood Bruce Lee's statement, Bruce Lee didn't say You have to spar to know the speed of the kick or u have to swim to know the speed u swimming, he says u need to swim to know about swimming but knowing about swimming doesn't really mean that you know how fast u go PRECISELY, for that u need a lab.
 
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Buka

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Maybe we can look at it this way - the tactical purpose of a kick (in Martial Arts) is to strike another human being. Yes?
So.....let's start with that first video. Do you think that Capoeira kick has a chance to hit you if you have experience in fighting?
Do you think that slow Japanese front kick has a chance to hit you if you have experience in fighting?

As for me "making this thing look like rocket science or finding a cure for cancer"....er, no. Kicking is not that complicated. Defensively - You either get kicked or you don't. Offensively - you can either land some of your kicks or you can't. That Capoeira kick isn't going to hit anyone who has ever seen Capoeira for more than three minutes. That front kick has a far better chance to get in. I realize that does not change the MPH speed of those two kicks measured, but in their tactical application, in the very purpose for which they were designed, there is a large difference.

As for measuring devices, have you ever been subject to any of them? I'm sure they're better now than they once were, but they do have some flaws, especially ones that measure force.

Fighting, kicking, punching does not take place in the lab. And with all due respect I am not trying to "ignore physics and facts pulled out from a scientific lab", I'm just trying to put them in context. I believe the facts and physics are skewed and presented for entertainment purposes and entertainment purposes only.

As for kicking being faster than punching - ain't gonna happen. At least not to a fighter. Custer had better odds than that.

But, brother, I love your passion! Passion is so important in training.
 

poollshark

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You're not comparing properly here IMHO.

You need to declare a target to do this properly, again IMHO.

Target A, the head. Which strike will get there first?

Target B, the Knee. Which strike will get there first?

Get it? It's not just about top speed, it's about total elapsed time from the moment you begin your strike to impact.

Top overall max speed, the kick. However if you're standing 2 feet in front of me and i want to hit you in the nose which strike would be quickest to impact?
So although the kick has a faster top speed it is not always quickest to the target.
 

jks9199

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Again, it comes down to definitions of "speed."

I don't think anyone is disagreeing that in feet-per-second (fps) or whatever units you want to use, a kick can travel faster than a punch.

But that's not really a meaningful measurement for the useful application of a punch versus a kick. That's what I was trying to point out when I mentioned the record or wheel. The outside edge moves faster in fps than the inner edge -- but they both move the same rate in revolutions per second, which is the meaningful measure for that purpose. For a punch or kick, I don't care which moves faster in fps. I care about which will cover the distance to the desired target most effectively. Again -- "speed", for my purposes in fighting, is defined as "covering the distance to the desired target."
 

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OK, it is possible for a foot to move "faster" in some measurable way, than a hand.

Now... So What? Is there a point to all this?
 
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sturmgewehr

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Again, it comes down to definitions of "speed."

I don't think anyone is disagreeing that in feet-per-second (fps) or whatever units you want to use, a kick can travel faster than a punch.

But that's not really a meaningful measurement for the useful application of a punch versus a kick. That's what I was trying to point out when I mentioned the record or wheel. The outside edge moves faster in fps than the inner edge -- but they both move the same rate in revolutions per second, which is the meaningful measure for that purpose. For a punch or kick, I don't care which moves faster in fps. I care about which will cover the distance to the desired target most effectively. Again -- "speed", for my purposes in fighting, is defined as "covering the distance to the desired target."

nicely said, I agree.

OK, it is possible for a foot to move "faster" in some measurable way, than a hand.

Now... So What? Is there a point to all this?

yes there is, too bad you don't see it, the point is simple, we were discussing the speed of the punch and kick and it seems that you don't really carer about this, the I DON"T CARE attitude can be applied everywhere.

Someone could die and you would say SO WHAT?>?? is there a point. well depends if the person is related to u and you cared anbout him then of course there would be a point but if the person was someone that u didn't know then you could easily say SO WHAT??? thousands die every day should I be worried about that.
 
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sturmgewehr

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You're not comparing properly here IMHO.

You need to declare a target to do this properly, again IMHO.

Target A, the head. Which strike will get there first?

Target B, the Knee. Which strike will get there first?

Get it? It's not just about top speed, it's about total elapsed time from the moment you begin your strike to impact.

Top overall max speed, the kick. However if you're standing 2 feet in front of me and i want to hit you in the nose which strike would be quickest to impact?
So although the kick has a faster top speed it is not always quickest to the target.

this is what I was thinking too, depends what you want to target, if u target the knee then u will kick if u target the head u will punch for sure.
 

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Here is some food for thought on this, when comparing the punch of the boxer to the capoeira kick given in the example videos.

The capoeira technique is a circular technique that generates the impressive speed by using centrifugal force. The technique utilizes 2 circles. The length of the body from shoulder to foot is the radius of the 1st circle used - making the circle as large as possible which is what allows for such a high speed at the circumference (where the foot is). The second circle uses a radius from the knee to the foot - this creates a whip like motion maximizing the final speed.

The boxer's jab is more of a "linear" technique.

Let's try to understand the distances in the techniques.

In watching the capoeira kick in the video, it seems the technique starts with the practitioners body perpendicular to the target and his foot 180 degrees. If we assume that it is 5 feet from his shoulder to the striking area of the foot and it is 2 feet from the knee to the foot's striking area. That means the foot would travel 14.13 feet by my calculations.
circum_formula.gif
. Understand that 5 feet is the radius of the larger circle and 2 feet is the radius of the smaller circle in the technique. That means the diameters are 10 feet and 4 feet respectively. So Circumference is 31.4 feet for the larger circle and 12.56 feet for the smaller. The foot travels 180 degrees on the smaller circle or 1/2 or 6.28 feet. The foot also travel 90 degrees on the larger or 1/4 or 7.85 feet. Total distance traveled again is 14.13 feet. The foot's speed is 136 MPH or 199.47 Feet per Second. Impressive but the technique will take about .07 seconds from when he shifts from the crouch and plants his hand on the floor.

To be fair though we need to track boxer's jab's distance from when planted his lead leg because the capoeira kick distance is calculated after he has crouched and then placed his hand on the ground. For the boxer then that would leave the fist approximately 6" from the target. At 30 feet per second the punch only takes about .017 seconds meaning that the punch meets its target over 5 hundredths of a second faster.

What the videos prove is something anyone who takes martial arts longer than 6 months should understand. You don't want someone to kick you - because it is a larger mass than the arms plus greater acceleration on impact so more potential damage. What is not addressed is actual time needed for the technique or time needed to set up the technique. This is actually clearer when you watch the section of the boxer video when he punched 26 times in 5 seconds. There is no kick that can have that quick of a set up and recovery to execute at that rate except for Liu Kang's signature bicycle kick.
 

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There is no kick that can have that quick of a set up and recovery to execute at that rate except for Liu Kang's signature bicycle kick.
Leading Leg Instep Kick? More commonly called a Front Leg Round Kick :)
After the initial contact, you rechamber the leg, and kick again. And you can keep that up for as long as your quads can deal with it.
Naturally, someone might be thinking about whether that was practical - The Boxer was against a stationary defenceless target who let him hit it a set number of times.

But this isnt about situational practicality. A Kick is faster than a Punch once it starts moving, a Punch can have a shorter distance to travel; Albeit a Low Kick or Mid Kick can hit as quickly as a punch.

Set up and recovery is a factor, of course. But, with just about any Kick (Well, not any. NOT at ALL.) Set up is fast. Recovery is fast. Transitioning to another Kick is what can be slower, if its immediate.
 

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Leading Leg Instep Kick? More commonly called a Front Leg Round Kick :)
After the initial contact, you rechamber the leg, and kick again. And you can keep that up for as long as your quads can deal with it.
Naturally, someone might be thinking about whether that was practical - The Boxer was against a stationary defenceless target who let him hit it a set number of times.
Ok. But not at a rate of 26 kicks in 5 seconds probably at most half that rate. The boxer was working with 2 hands to get the 26 punches in 5 seconds what you describe is repeating with the same leg. My guess would be that most Martial Artists would struggle to do repetitive roundhouses to a target (not in the air) at a rate of 10 kicks in 5 seconds.
Take a look at this video of French Kickboxer Jerome Le Banner.
Here's a pro fighter doing a same leg repetitive mid level roundhouse kick at a rate of 5 kicks in 3 seconds, hands and feet working furiously to do so. This is a rate of 1.67 kicks per second. Much slower than the boxer's rate of 5.2 punches per second. If we extend Jerome's rate to 5 seconds he would only have 8 kicks. Now we could debate which is worse 8 kicks to the ribs from a K1 Fighter or 26 punches to the head from a Light Heavyweight World Champion Boxer (my vote would be to protect the head) but it is clear in this case that the hand technique is delivered significantly faster than the foot - even with a mid level technique.

You have to bear in mind that even with a low lead leg round house the foot is traveling 6 to 8 feet to hit its target (say the opponents lead leg). Let's say you have 70 MPH lead leg roundhouse, it would still take .078 seconds for the kick to hit.

Low lead leg front kick would be the shortest distance kick at around 2 feet from ground to the opponents shin but I would guess that the speed of this kick is closer to hand speed since it is more "linear" and doesn't utilize centrifugal force. We can use 40 MPH for arguments sake and make it about 10MPH faster than the boxer's jab. Still the low lead leg front kick would take .034 seconds to hit. Fastest kick so far but still double the time it takes to throw the jab.

My money is on the hand techniques reaching high & middle targets faster and kicks reaching low targets faster.
 
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Cyriacus

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Ok. But not at a rate of 26 kicks in 5 seconds probably at most half that rate. The boxer was working with 2 hands to get the 26 punches in 5 seconds what you describe is repeating with the same leg. My guess would be that most Martial Artists would struggle to do repetitive roundhouses to a target (not in the air) at a rate of 10 kicks in 5 seconds.
Take a look at this video of French Kickboxer Jerome Le Banner.
Here's a pro fighter doing a same leg repetitive mid level roundhouse kick at a rate of 5 kicks in 3 seconds, hands and feet working furiously to do so. This is a rate of 1.67 kicks per second. Much slower than the boxer's rate of 5.2 punches per second. If we extend Jerome's rate to 5 seconds he would only have 8 kicks. Now we could debate which is worse 8 kicks to the ribs from a K1 Fighter or 26 punches to the head from a Light Heavyweight World Champion Boxer (my vote would be to protect the head) but it is clear in this case that the hand technique is delivered significantly faster than the foot - even with a mid level technique.

You have to bear in mind that even with a low lead leg round house the foot is traveling 6 to 8 feet to hit its target (say the opponents lead leg). Let's say you have 70 MPH lead leg roundhouse, it would still take .078 seconds for the kick to hit.

Low lead leg front kick would be the shortest distance kick at around 2 feet from ground to the opponents shin but I would guess that the speed of this kick is closer to hand speed since it is more "linear" and doesn't utilize centrifugal force. We can use 40 MPH for arguments sake and make it about 10MPH faster than the boxer's jab. Still the low lead leg front kick would take .034 seconds to hit. Fastest kick so far but still double the time it takes to throw the jab.

My money is on the hand techniques reaching high & middle targets faster and kicks reaching low targets faster.
-- 45 seconds to 47 seconds - Someone could probably keep that up a while longer. :)
 
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sturmgewehr

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Ok. But not at a rate of 26 kicks in 5 seconds probably at most half that rate. The boxer was working with 2 hands to get the 26 punches in 5 seconds what you describe is repeating with the same leg. My guess would be that most Martial Artists would struggle to do repetitive roundhouses to a target (not in the air) at a rate of 10 kicks in 5 seconds.
Take a look at this video of French Kickboxer Jerome Le Banner.
Here's a pro fighter doing a same leg repetitive mid level roundhouse kick at a rate of 5 kicks in 3 seconds, hands and feet working furiously to do so. This is a rate of 1.67 kicks per second. Much slower than the boxer's rate of 5.2 punches per second. If we extend Jerome's rate to 5 seconds he would only have 8 kicks. Now we could debate which is worse 8 kicks to the ribs from a K1 Fighter or 26 punches to the head from a Light Heavyweight World Champion Boxer (my vote would be to protect the head) but it is clear in this case that the hand technique is delivered significantly faster than the foot - even with a mid level technique.

You have to bear in mind that even with a low lead leg round house the foot is traveling 6 to 8 feet to hit its target (say the opponents lead leg). Let's say you have 70 MPH lead leg roundhouse, it would still take .078 seconds for the kick to hit.

Low lead leg front kick would be the shortest distance kick at around 2 feet from ground to the opponents shin but I would guess that the speed of this kick is closer to hand speed since it is more "linear" and doesn't utilize centrifugal force. We can use 40 MPH for arguments sake and make it about 10MPH faster than the boxer's jab. Still the low lead leg front kick would take .034 seconds to hit. Fastest kick so far but still double the time it takes to throw the jab.

My money is on the hand techniques reaching high & middle targets faster and kicks reaching low targets faster.

What about Senchai ??

 
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backyardkempo.com

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What about Senchai ??


What's your point?

50 Kicks in 22 seconds is very impressive. That's a rate of 2.27 kicks per seconds - not quite half the boxer's speed of 5.2 kicks per second. If we set Senchai's rate to 5 seconds then he only would deliver 11 kicks - not even close to the boxer's 26.

What was my guess about 4 or so posts earlier?
Ok. But not at a rate of 26 kicks in 5 seconds probably at most half that rate. The boxer was working with 2 hands to get the 26 punches in 5 seconds what you describe is repeating with the same leg. My guess would be that most Martial Artists would struggle to do repetitive roundhouses to a target (not in the air) at a rate of 10 kicks in 5 seconds.

There are 2 examples of elite fighters kicking as fast as they can.
1. Jerome Le Banner - A 265 lb. K1 Kickboxer who delivered at a rate of 8 kicks in 5 seconds.
2. Senchai Sor Kingstar - A 130 lb. Muay Thai Fighter who delvered at a rate of 11 kicks in 5 seconds.

I think I made a pretty good guess.

 
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sturmgewehr

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What's your point?

My point is that even though a Kick like that ( middle kick ) has to travel 3 times the distance of Middle Weight CHAD DAWSON's it still was fast like lightning, u rarely see someone kick and cock his leg like that and kick again, that is more than impressive.

You were comparing the kicking speed of JLB who is a Heavyweight with Chad Dawson who was a former Middle weight title holder, not a good comparison if u ask me, whereas I posted u a guy who is approximately the same weight with the boxer that punched in that clip.

​
50 Kicks in 22 seconds is very impressive. That's a rate of 2.27 kicks per seconds - not quite half the boxer's speed of 5.2 kicks per second. If we set Senchai's rate to 5 seconds then he only would deliver 11 kicks - not even close to the boxer's 26.

As I said it is more than Impressive, and yes that is 2.27 kicks per second, and keep in mind boxers 5.2 per second includes both of his hands if u divide 5.2 kicks per second by 2 hands it will be 2.6 which is approximately the same speed as Senchai's kicks plus KEEP IN MIND that Senchai's kick had to travel at least 3 times the distance of Chad Dwason's Punch and still made it 2.27 kicks per second which further proves my point that a kick is WAY faster than a punch in sense of SPEED, VELOCITY and god knows I contacted Professor Allain he said he is not sure about Acceleration but a kick MIGHT have a bigger acceleration at the point of impact.

​
What was my guess about 4 or so posts earlier?

There are 2 examples of elite fighters kicking as fast as they can.
1. Jerome Le Banner - A 265 lb. K1 Kickboxer who delivered at a rate of 8 kicks in 5 seconds.
2. Senchai Sor Kingstar - A 130 lb. Muay Thai Fighter who delvered at a rate of 11 kicks in 5 seconds.

I think I made a pretty good guess.

Ur guess was OK I just thought u made the wrong comparison when comparing Chad Dwason's Punches with JLB's Kicks cuz JLB is at least 2 weight classes higher than CD.
 
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sturmgewehr

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So this is it??? no one really has any facts to present.
 

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So this is it??? no one really has any facts to present.
Plenty of facts have been presented.
There is no single answer, because some people can Kick fast as hell, and others can Punch as fast. It comes down to People, not the actual Techniques.
There are to Facts TO Present, besides the Fact that Answers Will Vary.
 

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I would like to add that which is faster also depends on the target. A punch to the head will likely be faster than a likely be faster than a kick to the head. A kick to the stomach may be faster than a punch, depending on distance and position. A kick to the legs will likely be faster than a punch to the legs.
 
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sturmgewehr

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Who needs facts, we got you, brother.

I would assume that you are being ironical but when discussing something it is very important that we present different facts and argument from different sources so we make it more reliable in order to come to a conclusion, I have presented a couple of facts and scientific measurements made in the lab and I came here to discuss, I am not here to troll or whatever.

I would like to add that which is faster also depends on the target. A punch to the head will likely be faster than a likely be faster than a kick to the head. A kick to the stomach may be faster than a punch, depending on distance and position. A kick to the legs will likely be faster than a punch to the legs.

yes and I also had a discussion with a guy form another forum, I will post it here so you can all read it.

he made some very good points.
 
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sturmgewehr

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xxxx said:
You're comparing speeds from two different fighters in two different weight classes.


Saying that, wasn't there a test done that determined Ali's punch being faster then human reaction time? I swear I've seen it, I'll see if I can find an article.


Lol that is a paradox.


that is like saying Waking up before waking up.


Faster than the average reaction time of a normal human being that sits in front of the TV and drinks beer.


Plus being able to react faster than a normal human reaction time doesn't mean the punch is faster, legs are usually able to react faster, the 100 meters sprinters have the fastest reaction.


Even if the Legs don't react the fastest still they are faster, the fact that a rabbit can react faster than a Leopard doesn't mean that he is faster than the Leopard, or the fastest reaction time of a living being is that of a Fly I think house fly still the house fly is not faster than the Leopard.


A blink is probably the fastest human reaction - maybe 1/10 of a second.


Fingertip Reaction Time


In the Olympic 100 m final, Bolt broke new ground, winning in 9.69 s (unofficially 9.683 s) with a reaction time of 0.165 s.


Taking into account that Bolt reacts with his legs with are way bigger than arms and for something 4 times bigger than an Arm Reacting in 0.16 is very fast.


Average Human reaction time is 0.2 it says it is somewhere between 0.15 to 0.3 sec so I take it in the middle someone can react in 0.15 someone in 0.3, 0.2 would be the average human reaction time.


Let's say Muhammed Ali or the fastest Boxer can punch 0.1, there is no way someone to react as fast as that since ur nervous system needs time to react and I read somewhere that it is impossible to react faster than 0.1.


Flies react 0.04 and that is the fastest creature that can react to a situation.


Still I think if we had something to measure that a low kick would be as fast or a kick to the inner thigh by Senchai would be as fast 0.1.


that still doesn't mean that a punch is faster than a kick, as I said Flies are the living beings that react the fastest but they are not faster than the Leopard.


also Look at the videos I posted where they measured those Kickboxer's kick speed who were same weight of Chad Dwason's and see CD punch speed who was kind of a Jab/Straight punch.


yyyy said:
That's a flawed analysis.

Saenchai fights at 130 lbs. Dawson fights at light heavyweight.

A better analysis would be if you compared Saenchai to Amir Khan, a 140 lb boxer, who threw 400 uppercuts in 60 seconds (that's an average of 6.67 punches a second). And, for the record, those were uppercuts not jabs/crosses which go in a straight line.


We don't have to Compare Senchai to Amir khan.


Go back and check this video, these guys are the same weight as Chad Dwason's weight and they still kicked way faster than Chad Dwasons Jab with 30 ft/s which is something between 20 - 30 MPH where the slowest kick was measured 70 mph.


Prove me Amir Khan threw 400 Uppercuts in 60 Seconds.


let's see it, I am not saying it didn't happen I just wanna see it.


plus even if he did the Uppercut same as the jab has at least 2 times shorter distance to travel than Senchai's Middle kick.


The Distance from Khan's guard to the head is 2 times at least shorter than the distance from Senchai's leg where it had to travel from the ground in arch motion like the uppercut to the guys abdomen.


50 Kicks in 22 seconds = 136 Kicks in 60 Seconds taking into account that the distance that the kick has to travel 2 - 3 times more u will get the result.


Plus I bet u 100% that Amir Khan used his both Hands to Throw those 400 Uppercuts whereas Senchai used only one leg, so 136 Kicks in 60 Seconds with one leg 400 Punches with 2 hands divided by 2 makes 200 Punches in 60 sec which means 3.3 Punches in a Second with only one hand whereas Senchai's rate would be 2.27 Kicks per second still way faster than Khans Uppercut who had to travel AT LEAST 2 - 3 times shorter distance than Senchai's Kick.


Let me see Amir Khan's video or a pic to see what is his punchind distance compared to Senchai's kicking distance and we will make an approximate calculation.


Plus Kicks don't work like Punches in Bunches, kicks work one by one and there is no one that will throw too many kicks at once, so that round house kick to the mid section Senchai was throwing is Faster than Amir Khan's Upper cuts.


Chad Dwason's Jab was at most 30 Mph whereas that Karate guys front kick was 70 mph. I think they were both approximately the same weight.


yyyy said:
In general, kicks tend to be slower due to:


- larger distance to travel
- the fact that they have to travel in a roundhouse fashion (as opposed to a linear motion)


you make no sense, you saying the measured 130 Miles of the Muay Thai Kickboxer are slower than Chad Dwasons 30 Mph ????


not quite the case.


if a car traveling 2 miles with the speed of 30 miles per hour got faster to the target than a car traveling 130 mph a distance of 40 miles doesn't mean that the first car is faster it just means it has less distance to travel that is why it got there first otherwise the second car is faster as u can see the numbers.


a Kick is more powerful there is more power behind it which will make it travel faster and it has a longer distance to go which will get the chance to accelerate more, simple physics.


Plus I don't have to prove this, measurements prove it, they used speedometers and accelerometers to measure the speed of the kick.


yyyy said:
There are exceptions (such as buakaw etc) who have honed their kicks to the point where they rival the punch speed of some fighters, but, overall, punches tend to be slightly faster.


So Buakaw can kick faster than Senchai ??? that is funny.

zzzz said:
I think you also have to look at distancing. If both fighters are standing right outside of the rim, the kick is going to be faster because it's already within range where as the puncher has to make a step forward as he throws the punch to be able to get to his range.


There's so many variables.
 

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