Master not registering students with kkw

[Gnarlie]

That's just plain rotten. Sorry to hear that it happened to you. Just to make sure I'm reading this correctly, you paid 760; 600+160 for each dan. That is outrageous.


Not uncommon. One school where I trained charged 500 for an in house cert, but maintained the illusion (up to and including outright stating) that paperwork was being sent back to the "Federation" in Korea. As it turned out, the Federation was founded by the school owner.

I agree, it's outrageous pricing and behaviour. In the UK and Germany testing prices including KKW cert are closer to what you paid just for the certification.

If you can find an ally in a high ranking legitimate KKW master with close ties to KKW, they may be able to help you if you explain your circumstances. Rumy, would you be able to offer evidence of the transactions in such a situation?

 

[Jaeimseu]

It stinks, but I guess it's at least somewhat a byproduct of supply and demand. If you want the Kukkiwon, you only have limited options on where to obtain it. It's really a shame when a master offers the Kukkiwon and then doesn't provide it.

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[Daniel Sullivan]

It stinks, but I guess it's at least somewhat a byproduct of supply and demand.

Demand for rank is the root of the problem.

If you want the Kukkiwon, you only have limited options on where to obtain it.

Unless one is competing and wishes to compete in the black belt bracket, there is no necessity for it. It is a nice thing to have if you have aspirations to teach, but for the vast majority of practitioners, it amounts to little more than a nice piece of paper to go with the nice piece cloth.

It's really a shame when a master offers the Kukkiwon and then doesn't provide it.

It is also fraud.

 

[WaterGal]

I got the money for the kkw and hapkido registration returned -- $160. However, i did not get back the $600 for each dan test.

It seems to me that he should have refunded you for at least the TKD test (minus maybe $50-75 if you got some swag), since without the KKW cert it's kind of... not meaningless, exactly, because it's still personally fulfilling, but it defeats one of the main points of doing KKW/WTF training, which is that your rank is transferrable.

Edit: And also, you paid that $600 (is that for each or both?) on the understanding that you were going to get an international certification (even if their was also a seperate registration fee for that). He failed to provide that, which means that payment was made on a false promise and also fraudulent.

 

[Rumy73]

It seems to me that he should have refunded you for at least the TKD test (minus maybe $50-75 if you got some swag), since without the KKW cert it's kind of... not meaningless, exactly, because it's still personally fulfilling, but it defeats one of the main points of doing KKW/WTF training, which is that your rank is transferrable.

Exactly. I move around a bit due changes in duty location, which has over time put me into test/retest at new dojangs. After more than a decade, I am exasperated with it all. This thing took the cake.

 

[sopraisso]

Thanks. Here is thing, I talked to a few local masters, and it was like they smelled blood: "we will retest you for $400 or $500... Blah, blah.

I am at peace and will not pursue it anymore.

I'm very sorry for your problem. I'm surely going to be through a similar one soon. My black belt test was 6 months ago and my instructor says I have to register first in the local taekwondo org (US$ 60), then after that in the national org (more US$ 60) only then to be able to register to Kukkiwon, god knows when (he'll surely say it takes long time for them to send the cert -- certainly more than the actual time) -- that means I have to pay to 2 other orgs who I have no interest in just to make my KKW registration (hopefully) when I'm surely going to have to pay again (the actual KKW registration fee)! Not to mention the US$ 800 I had to pay my black belt test, having no guarantee that I would receive any kind of certificate unless I pay for the other registrations (even though I'm not confident I'll be able to receive the KKW certificate and surely it won't be soon). I'm sure the instructor does this to make sure the students keep going to the school and paying their monthly fees. Unfortunately, this is the absolute norm in my country, so I have nowhere to run. At least it's good to know that you are in peace with your situation.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

The smart-*** in me would give the KKW form (at the following link) with the helpful comment, "actually you don't need to register with the local and national associations. Here's the kukkiwon form.
http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/viewfront/eng/promotion/download.jsp

 

[Jaeimseu]

The smart-*** in me would give the KKW form (at the following link) with the helpful comment, "actually you don't need to register with the local and national associations. Here's the kukkiwon form.
http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/viewfront/eng/promotion/download.jsp

I can't remember for certain, but I think in some countries people are required to go through the national association to get Kukkiwon certification.

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[Gnarlie]

Submission of Dan promotion test applications should be made only via the President of the Member National
****Association (MNA) of the WTF in nations where the MNA controls at least 70% of Taekwondo bodies and private
****instructors. It is not allowed to be recommended by the individual instructors in those countries. Individual instructors
****are not permitted to make personal recommendations.

Gnarlie

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Submission of Dan promotion test applications should be made only via the President of the Member National
****Association (MNA) of the WTF in nations where the MNA controls at least 70% of Taekwondo bodies and private
****instructors. It is not allowed to be recommended by the individual instructors in those countries. Individual instructors
****are not permitted to make personal recommendations.

Gnarlie

I'm not sure how this works. In Canada, the TKD national association "requires" clubs to go through them for BB registration / promotion. But most clubs are not registered through TKD Canada and go to the KKW directly. Consequently, the BB list for TKD Canada is not the same as KKW. So I was under the belief that KKW doesn't care about national association rules and processes the applications regardless.

 

[Gnarlie]

I'm not sure how this works. In Canada, the TKD national association "requires" clubs to go through them for BB registration / promotion. But most clubs are not registered through TKD Canada and go to the KKW directly. Consequently, the BB list for TKD Canada is not the same as KKW. So I was under the belief that KKW doesn't care about national association rules and processes the applications regardless.

I'm not sure how it works either, it's their rule.

I reckon the KKW preference must be to have a MNA in each country, but I'm not sure it works like that in reality, and to reject individual applications would be turning away revenue. I would suggest that the recommending individual would have to be known to the KKW.

Gnarlie

 

[Rumy73]

I can't remember for certain, but I think in some countries people are required to go through the national association to get Kukkiwon certification.

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Can anyone say "kickbacks?" Ahh, I knew you could... This is part of the fleecing of students, which I rail against.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Submission of Dan promotion test applications should be made only via the President of the Member National
****Association (MNA) of the WTF in nations where the MNA controls at least 70% of Taekwondo bodies and private
****instructors. It is not allowed to be recommended by the individual instructors in those countries. Individual instructors
****are not permitted to make personal recommendations.

Gnarlie

Pretty much wallpaper, since it's unenforceable in any real sense. There's no way for the KKW (or anybody else) to know what percentage of schools are KKW-affiliated with any accuracy. There are just too many orgs and independents. The only thing this does is give the MNA an excuse to change people extra fees.

 

[Gnarlie]

Pretty much wallpaper, since it's unenforceable in any real sense. There's no way for the KKW (or anybody else) to know what percentage of schools are KKW-affiliated with any accuracy. There are just too many orgs and independents. The only thing this does is give the MNA an excuse to change people extra fees.

I didn't read it in that way, I understood it as if over 70 percent of KKW applications from a country go thru the NMA, then they all have to. That's easier for KKW to monitor. I don't think KKW really care about unaffiliated clubs in this context.

Gnarlie

 

[WaterGal]

I didn't read it in that way, I understood it as if over 70 percent of KKW applications from a country go thru the NMA, then they all have to. That's easier for KKW to monitor. I don't think KKW really care about unaffiliated clubs in this context.

Gnarlie

Yeah, that's how I read it, too. Or even, "if 70% of KKW/WTF schools are members of the national org". Which they could still monitor based on who's sending them applications.

 

[Master Dan]

In fact your master does not need to be a member of a regional or national org in order to make application for your black belt degree. What he must do is complete the necessary paperwork with KKW and receive official registration as a recommending master. Once he has that it is simply fill out the form and send in the money. In Korea you cannot recommend or operate a Do Jang with out receiving an International Master's teaching license. I have both and use them on the applications. KKW has been very kind to me I have found the online applications to be a bit frustrating and when you send in money it cannot be a Cashiers check they will return it. You must send in a check it can be personal or business. It takes a long time for it to clear and I always look forward to receiving notification on my bank statement of KKW receiving and using the funds kind of a keep sake. By the way I pay for my students black belts or Poom belts out of my own pocket. I teach for free and I feel any student that commits to their training enough to pass the test and commits to serving the community, teaching others and their personal training for life they deserve that.

What is really sad is those that have trained and paid for as much as 25 years find out that they have no standing with KKW and no matter what time in rank applies if you were 3rd Dan unregistered and I gave you an 1st Dan you would still need to have another 36 months time in rank to get to 3rd Dan. I have no problem helping anyone at my cost provided they meet all requirements of the WTF and KKW standards for testing.

regardless what a person does have paper no paper is their health and skill the paper is important if you want to be a master benefactor to your students

 

[andyjeffries]

KKW has been very kind to me I have found the online applications to be a bit frustrating

I think the KMS online system is slow and not user friendly, but I don't find it frustrating. In fact, it seems to be a breeze. I put two through in the last month and both times it was easy and reasonably quick (I did them in the UK morning before all the US-ers get up and start hammering it).

 

[Metal]

What is really sad is those that have trained and paid for as much as 25 years find out that they have no standing with KKW and no matter what time in rank applies if you were 3rd Dan unregistered and I gave you an 1st Dan you would still need to have another 36 months time in rank to get to 3rd Dan.

That's why Kukkiwon introduced their special Skip Dan Promotion Tests. They already had those in the US and we just had one in Germany last year and a lot of people took the chance. There's lots of people here who have a high national Dan, but a low Kukkiwon Dan. Or there's lots of people (especially coaches and former competitive athletes) who have spent many years teaching and training, but didn't get to prepare for and take any part in any belt testings.

You had to meet the time requirements between each level up to the level that was requested.

And they also offered to issue higher Kukkiwon Dans to those people who never aquired a Kukkiwon Dan. You had to hand in copies of all certificates and Kukkiwon would decide if you would be able to apply for a Kukkiwon Skip Dan.

 

[Master Dan]

I think the KMS online system is slow and not user friendly, but I don't find it frustrating. In fact, it seems to be a breeze. I put two through in the last month and both times it was easy and reasonably quick (I did them in the UK morning before all the US-ers get up and start hammering it).

I think our problem is our location we are about 100 miles from the Arctic Circle and our network is slow compared to lower 48 or even larger metropolitan location in Alaska

 

[Master Dan]

That's why Kukkiwon introduced their special Skip Dan Promotion Tests. They already had those in the US and we just had one in Germany last year and a lot of people took the chance. There's lots of people here who have a high national Dan, but a low Kukkiwon Dan. Or there's lots of people (especially coaches and former competitive athletes) who have spent many years teaching and training, but didn't get to prepare for and take any part in any belt testings.

You had to meet the time requirements between each level up to the level that was requested.

And they also offered to issue higher Kukkiwon Dans to those people who never aquired a Kukkiwon Dan. You had to hand in copies of all certificates and Kukkiwon would decide if you would be able to apply for a Kukkiwon Skip Dan.

There could be something new in the last two years but generally you cannot skip more that two Dan's and if you never possessed a KKW 1st Dan according to the current rules and by laws I have I think it would hard to go from zero to 5th 6th or 7th Dan??