why do they do it?

msmitht

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Why do kkw masters pass someone to black belt/poom and not order the certs? Today a man came to my class for the first time. He said he was from a school nearby and had been a first Dan for over one year. I asked him for a copy of his cert and his reply was "that is why I am here, sir". After class he sat down and told me that his former sa bum nim, whom I know is a kkw 6th dan, has not ordered any of his students their certs from korea. He charged$800 us for the test and said that the certs would take 6mo to get. One year later, no cert. I looked him up in the kkw database and he, along with his son and 2 nephews are not registered. Why? It is not expensive. I get the 6mo wait time because it forces them to continue classes but to not give a coustomer what they paid for is unethical and criminal.Anyone else had a similar situation?
 

Buka

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I believe it's called bunco.
 

granfire

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Man, it's the same in other disciplines.
They do it because they can get away with it 99% of the time.
The people either believe and stick around or just drop off the face of the earth and are quickly replaced with new students.
Only a select few question the practice. And even then it's doubtful they go past the questioning. They might find a new school who takes pity on them and trains them up to the level they thought they had.

yeah, it's bunco. Theft, swindle, what have you. But unless somebody calls them on it with means and consequences...nothing will ever change.

In a different sport all together the question keeps popping up 'should i out them or mind my own business?' The MYOB usually wins out and the people are allowed to continue theri operation. Everybody knows it but looks the other way when new students are being taken.
 

NSRTKD

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I guess the solution would be to seriously nag your instructor until you get it, and go back to the original instructor and request your documentation?
 

Earl Weiss

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Most states have an attorney general or similar office that deals with consumer fraud. Your local government may have one as well. Contact them and file a complaint. See if you can also get local law enforcement interested. It will help if more than one person contacts them with te same issue. This will eliminate any issues like "The person did not complete a requirement." many crools know lawsuits are time consuming and expensive and if needed they will defend or make food on the issue so the threat of a civil suit is not nearly as motivatiing as contactfrom governemnt agencies or cops knocking on the door.

I have just recently told a guy claiming to be ITF, even listed on his website that he is defrauding his customers. Sadly, he is in another state so there is little I can do.
 

Kong Soo Do

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whom I know is a kkw 6th dan...

I looked him up in the kkw database and he, along with his son and 2 nephews are not registered.

Question; how do you know he's a 6th Dan KKW if he isn't in the KKW data base?

He charged$800 us for the test and said that the certs would take 6mo to get. One year later...

The answer is obvious.
 

Archtkd

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Why do kkw masters pass someone to black belt/poom and not order the certs? Today a man came to my class for the first time. He said he was from a school nearby and had been a first Dan for over one year. I asked him for a copy of his cert and his reply was "that is why I am here, sir". After class he sat down and told me that his former sa bum nim, whom I know is a kkw 6th dan, has not ordered any of his students their certs from korea. He charged$800 us for the test and said that the certs would take 6mo to get. One year later, no cert. I looked him up in the kkw database and he, along with his son and 2 nephews are not registered. Why? It is not expensive. I get the 6mo wait time because it forces them to continue classes but to not give a coustomer what they paid for is unethical and criminal.Anyone else had a similar situation?

It's called theft. I have four blackbelts and two poom who recently signed up at my dojang. They were conned by an instructor who took money from a total of about students, nearly $14,000, for testing them for Kukkiwon dan/poom certificates. They students had attended the master's now defunct dojnag, and tested with him for ranks that range from 1st Dan to 3rd Dan. The man took their cash and moved back to Korea more than a year ago.
 

andyjeffries

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Kong Soo Do, I believe you are confusing the instructor (KKW 6th Dan) and defrauded student (not in the database) from the post.
 

MA-Caver

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It's theft, it's fraud and it's B.S. :mad: because it screws the student who may or may not have gotten the CORRECT training from said instructor or they're just dishonest enough to want to keep bilking the students for more money. Report them to the BBB and local law enforcement and see if that gets you anywhere... then go and research up that instructor's *** with a microscope and see if they are indeed legit and if not expose them as frauds by getting on the news or at least finding ways to do it.

All they do is waste a lot of people's time and money and make other legitimate instructors look bad and untrustworthy. A good (legitimate) instructor will know to order a student's certification in advance (if need to come from another country) if they're certain that particular student will achieve the rank/belt they're getting certified for. At least when the student passes their exam/test the paperwork is already there ready to be signed/dated by the instructor(s). If they don't then at least the certificate can go into the file cabinet until it's accomplished after they train/test again.

This is why when I return to a school I plan on getting out my microscope and finding out everything I can about the instructor. Certs on the wall can be printed up and put behind a cheap $1.00 frame from Walmart. It's sad but don't take anyone's word until you have verification from at least two or three different sources about the legitimacy of the instructor and the art they teach.
 

Earl Weiss

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Kong Soo Do....

Is your real name David Schultz?

The same David Schultz who was the subject of much discussion on the Bullshido website?
 

Kong Soo Do

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What does this have to do with the thread?

Feel free to pm or email if you're interested in the answer.

Edited to add: Any MT member is free to PM or email me in regards to a thread on another board from around six years ago. The reader's digest version is that the author of the thread has been banned from several boards, including this one, he was exposed for lying (including several times by me), and since he chose to post on a board I was not a member of (and didn't find out about it until Jeremy asked almost the same question as Earl word for word...which is kinda odd) I was not able to respond and set the record right. In this way, threads aren't taken off course. Thank you.
 
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ralphmcpherson

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I just cant believe people let them get away with that. You have paid for something and its not delivered. If you paid for a pizza and it never arrived you'd ring the pizza place and demand your money back. If you bought something on ebay, paid for it and it never arrived you'd demand your money back. If you gave someone $800 and sent them to the shop to buy you a TV and they never returned you'd track them down and demand your money back. So why the hell do people pay huge $ for a cert, it never arrives and they say "oh, I guess I'll just train elsewhere" ?. It absolutely amazes me.
 

Kong Soo Do

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Question for Earl Weiss as this is along the lines of the OP;

I see that you are one of those instructors that withhold a students certificates; (posted 05-14-2011 06:56 AM #22 in the thread Suing for Kukkiwon Certificate

FWIW I withold ist Dan certs for a year. On the first day of class, each new student recieves a student handbook. The last page is my Liability waiver, photo release, covenant not to sue. That is filled out, signed, torn off and given to me.

In post #27;

AFAIAC committing to active training for a year after the BB test is part of completing the requirements. Yes, it forces them to see there is something beyond the first dan test, and you (as well as they) grasp that from Day one this is part of the deal. No surprises.
I have not made an exception for people moving. They need to find some way to accomplish the commitment (They can train at another school) and will extend the probationary period indefinitely until that happens. I think one guy got his certificate after several years. Perhaps a few disappeared and asked for a certificate. But most never ask if they stop training.


Not lumping you in with the instructor in the OP which is not issuing certs at all, but in some ways your statement;

...and will extend the probationary period indefinitely until that happens. I think one guy got his certificate after several years. Perhaps a few disappeared and asked for a certificate...


...could be construed the same way. By your own admission you have and will withhold someones certificate forever if they don't wish to be forced to adhere to your arbitrary standard. Many students like to train in different systems till BB then progress to something entirely different as they feel this gives them a solid base in basics and makes them well rounded. I can't fault them for that. I can't see this as anything other than trying to force an extra years income out of a student. If your desire is for them to 'find life after first Dan' in your art, perhaps you should rely upon your abilities as an instructor rather than forcing a student into an arbitrary standard to receive something they trained for, tested for and passed...and presumbably paid for in advance.
 

Earl Weiss

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I'd be happy to answer the question if I could figure out where it is in the post.

As indicated, all students get a handbook the very first day. The policy is stated in the handbook (as are all test fees.) . Each test is paid in advance. Each student signs a test application sheet which clearly states that it is a "Test Fee" not a certificate fee. If they fail or do not complete the requirements they can re test at no charge for the re test. So, no, they have not paid for a certificate. they pay for the test. Please also note my full disclosure on this board and my response to all questions.


Question for Earl Weiss as this is along the lines of the OP;

I see that you are one of those instructors that withhold a students certificates; (posted 05-14-2011 06:56 AM #22 in the thread Suing for Kukkiwon Certificate

In post #27;

Not lumping you in with the instructor in the OP which is not issuing certs at all, but in some ways your statement;

...could be construed the same way. By your own admission you have and will withhold someones certificate forever if they don't wish to be forced to adhere to your arbitrary standard. Many students like to train in different systems till BB then progress to something entirely different as they feel this gives them a solid base in basics and makes them well rounded. I can't fault them for that. I can't see this as anything other than trying to force an extra years income out of a student. If your desire is for them to 'find life after first Dan' in your art, perhaps you should rely upon your abilities as an instructor rather than forcing a student into an arbitrary standard to receive something they trained for, tested for and passed...and presumbably paid for in advance.
 

Earl Weiss

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What does this have to do with the thread?

Feel free to pm or email if you're interested in the answer.

.

It has to do with accuracy of an instructor's representations.

A simple yes or no answer will suffice. I don't think that would deraail the thread.

I have not asked you to respond to the accuracy of allegations made on another board and will not do so.
 

Kong Soo Do

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I'd be happy to answer the question if I could figure out where it is in the post.

As indicated, all students get a handbook the very first day. The policy is stated in the handbook (as are all test fees.) . Each test is paid in advance. Each student signs a test application sheet which clearly states that it is a "Test Fee" not a certificate fee. If they fail or do not complete the requirements they can re test at no charge for the re test. So, no, they have not paid for a certificate. they pay for the test. Please also note my full disclosure on this board and my response to all questions.

Ah, okay I'll rephrase; Rather than forcing (your wording) a student into an arbitrary standard which "forces them to see there is something beyond the first dan test" and thereby getting you an extra years worth of income, why not rely solely upon your teaching ability to inspire the student to continue? Loyalty and retention rate shouldn't be requred or enforced for additional income should it? Shouldn't it be willingly given by your student on their own? Despite the fact that you have full disclosure up front doesn't negate that this is really just a money maker for you. Statements such as "their paying for a test and not a cert" is semantics.

In regards to your off-topic post, a simple yes/no wouldn't suffice and neither does your justification for said off-topic post. I don't see you questioning any one else in the thread for a representation of their accuracy. Are you buddies with Jeremy and Glenn by chance? And since you declined to pm or email me, at my invitation, it doesn't seem that you were actually all that interested to begin with. Were you? Drive-by comments aren't very professional. My invitation to discuss that matter via pm or email still stands, and IS the professional way to go about it.
 
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miguksaram

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Question for Earl Weiss as this is along the lines of the OP;
By your own admission you have and will withhold someones certificate forever if they don't wish to be forced to adhere to your arbitrary standard.
What you look at as "forced" some may see as quality control. The students are made aware, upfront, about the requirements he has for them after they reach black belt. So they know what they must due if they want to receive their certificates. If they choose not to, then that is their choice and must accept the fact they may not receive their BB Certificate from him.

Many students like to train in different systems till BB then progress to something entirely different as they feel this gives them a solid base in basics and makes them well rounded. I can't fault them for that. I can't see this as anything other than trying to force an extra years income out of a student.
Yes, many of them do that which is why we start to see sub-par martial arts being taught by instructors who feel that because they have trained a few years in one system then take a few seminars, greet a few like minded individuals who have already faked their names to the top, that they can be instant Grand masters.
While I may not agree with how Mst. Weiss dose this, or perhaps I should I personally would not do it the same way he does, but I understand why he does it.

If your desire is for them to 'find life after first Dan' in your art, perhaps you should rely upon your abilities as an instructor rather than forcing a student into an arbitrary standard to receive something they trained for, tested for and passed...and presumbably paid for in advance.
He is an extremely well qualified instructor who has been around for a while and is recognized and held in high regards by senior Korean Gm's as well as his peers in ITF and other systems. He can speak directly as to his own retention rate, but from what I know of him I'm sure he has no problem with loyalty in his students.
 

Kong Soo Do

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Hi Jeremy. Odd to see you in this thread, though not totally unexpected. I use the word 'forced' as it is Earl's own wording. Quality control? Really? Many schools have excellent students that eventually become excellent instructors without withholding their certificates.

Yes, many of them do that which is why we start to see sub-par martial arts being taught by instructors who feel that because they have trained a few years in one system then take a few seminars, greet a few like minded individuals who have already faked their names to the top, that they can be instant Grand masters.

Wow, that was a mouth full! First of all, we're discussing first Dans. Nothing has been mentioned about them becoming instructors, taking seminars or faking their way to the top and becoming grandmasters. Do you know of any in particular that have gained experience/certification to the BB rank in different arts that have faked their names to become instant grandmasters? Who are they? What is your evidence that they are sub-par? Have you seen them teach a class? Are you familar with their material? In what way have they faked their way to the top? And top of what?

Many have become quite proficient in several different types of arts and don't wish to focus solely upon just one art. That is their right if they chose and not up to others to determine what is best for them.

He is an extremely well qualified instructor who has been around for a while and is recognized and held in high regards by senior Korean Gm's as well as his peers in ITF and other systems. He can speak directly as to his own retention rate, but from what I know of him I'm sure he has no problem with loyalty in his students.

I never said Earl wasn't a qualified instructor. Being recognized and held in high regard by Korean GM's really doesn't mean a lot to me, but if you say so then I'm fine with it. Do you know what his retention rate is? Have you seen him teach or been to his school? Or is this an assumption on your part?
 
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