I am not certified by Kukiwon

miguksaram

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Just a question. Is it necessary for KKW certification to compete in the commonwealth games, asian(is there such a thing?) & world championships and olympics etc competitions? There was an earlier post mentioning "open tournaments" but im not sure if it covers the various games im thinking of.

For local & regional WTF sanctioned events you do not have to be KKW certified. However, any national and world events such as Pan-Am Games, Olympics, etc...you do need to be certified as a BB in KKW.
 

miguksaram

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We have that problem in the computer industry. I have seen a lot of computer techs or software engineers that have certifications coming out of their eyeballs who are not able to perform simple tasks. I have also had the privilege of working with some very talented programmers and techs who have no certifications at all.

What it comes down to is this. What is the lack of a certification stopping you from doing? Do you want to do it? How much is it worth to you to do it?

Let's look at it this way then. Do you feel a high school diploma is important? After all it is just a certification. I know many HS grads who can function in society and I know plenty who never graduate and are doing just fine.
 

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

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You truely have no understanding of the KKW. Though a piece of paper will not help you hit harder or move faster, it is a lot more than just a bunch of guys patting each other on the back. With that example that you gave, why train in any martial art at all? You can learn to hit harder and move faster by just going on the street and "doing".

I take it your school or your instructor's school or his instructor's school never belonged to an association?

You would take it incorrectly. My kenpo professors have included guys who started or headed national or international level organizations, and I myself have been kicking around starting one for kenpo orphans with an affiliative need. Costs? Nothing, or darned next to it.

I spent several years in TKD, under a lineage not affiliated with the KKW. Some fun stories in that histroy, but maybe another time or in another thread. My niece, who is a 1st degree black in TKD, is unable to test for her 2nd...too costly. To the studios credit, they list the fees, how much stays in the studio owners pockets, and how much gets shipped off to Korea. Good chunk of change going off to people she's never met, in a land she's never been to, ro register her shnizzle with a group that's done nothing with her except collect fees. Glad I stayed out of it: I'd have been pissed.

I have offered to assemble a panel of local TKD folks for a test...regional black belts who will evaluate critically, sign her cert if (and only if) she passes, and vouch for her in years to come. Because that's really the function of an association...to support members by vouching for quality concerns. Total costs if we do it this way? Whatever it runs for the lunch after. BBQ at her place, if she wants to keep costs minimal (brand new college student, and all), potluck in the park we test in, if it needs to be.

The point of conglomo-level orgs eventually becomes financial. If they are there for quality and support purposes only, why don't we see more from them than the sucking vacuum sound so many disenfranchised practitioners and teachers refer to? What does one actually GET as a result of membership, other than a membership card and some benefits of affiliation that ould be met in other ways?

D.
 

miguksaram

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You would take it incorrectly. My kenpo professors have included guys who started or headed national or international level organizations, and I myself have been kicking around starting one for kenpo orphans with an affiliative need. Costs? Nothing, or darned next to it.

You are not a believer in organizations, but you would start your own?

I spent several years in TKD, under a lineage not affiliated with the KKW. Some fun stories in that histroy, but maybe another time or in another thread. My niece, who is a 1st degree black in TKD, is unable to test for her 2nd...too costly. To the studios credit, they list the fees, how much stays in the studio owners pockets, and how much gets shipped off to Korea. Good chunk of change going off to people she's never met, in a land she's never been to, ro register her shnizzle with a group that's done nothing with her except collect fees. Glad I stayed out of it: I'd have been pissed.

How much is she paying for her 2nd dan, if you don't mind me asking. I would be interested in seeing that sheet. For my KKW 3rd dan certification I will have to pay $120.00 plus S/H..which is roughly $25.00. So if she is paying more than this, the instructor is lying to her about how much is going to Korea.


I have offered to assemble a panel of local TKD folks for a test...regional black belts who will evaluate critically, sign her cert if (and only if) she passes, and vouch for her in years to come. Because that's really the function of an association...to support members by vouching for quality concerns.

Who are the black belts? Are they KKW certified? What are their credentials? Pasing based on who's criteria? How much leverage will they have to vouch for her?

Total costs if we do it this way? Whatever it runs for the lunch after. BBQ at her place, if she wants to keep costs minimal (brand new college student, and all), potluck in the park we test in, if it needs to be.
It seems the price is an issue. So why bother with a testing. Just review her yourself and then send away for a black belt cert from one of those organizations that you see in the black belt magazine. She gets her diploma and it costs you mayb $50.00-$100.00 tops.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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I see the KKW in a little different light than that, Kembudo, though there is merit to your opinion.

The KKW establishes the standards and curriculum that the instructors in other countries follow. Fourth dan and higher instructors are eligible to write dan certs and presumably are judging the candidate as you describe in your post. Assuming that those issuing the certs are doing their jobs correctly, then the candidates are properly vetted.

The idea of minimum standards that enables anyone the world over to know what a blackbelt in the art is minimally capable of is a good and laudable goal. Whether or not the standards are set high enough or too low is a matter for a different conversation.

My one criticism of the Kukkiwon is that this process is not well policed. The size membership alone makes the task of doing so monumental if the org put forth its best effort to do so and impossible if it does not.

On a side note, I like your idea of testing fees!:)

Daniel
 

zDom

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For local & regional WTF sanctioned events you do not have to be KKW certified. However, any national and world events such as Pan-Am Games, Olympics, etc...you do need to be certified as a BB in KKW.

Now wait a minute, someone just told me a week or so ago (when I suggested they ought to open up competition to ANYONE in a punching/kicking art) that all you needed to compete was membership that costs $35 in forget which, USATaekwondo?

So which is it? This isn't "open" if you MUST have KKW certs :)
 

Daniel Sullivan

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Now wait a minute, someone just told me a week or so ago (when I suggested they ought to open up competition to ANYONE in a punching/kicking art) that all you needed to compete was membership that costs $35 in forget which, USATaekwondo?

So which is it? This isn't "open" if you MUST have KKW certs :)
That gets you into any USAT tournament. The US olympic team is, I believe, pooled from USAT and requires a black belt. If USAT issues you a blackbelt, it is KKW according to the USAT site.

Daniel
 

Kwanjang

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That gets you into any USAT tournament. The US olympic team is, I believe, pooled from USAT and requires a black belt. If USAT issues you a blackbelt, it is KKW according to the USAT site.

Daniel

You are correct CT
 

Daniel Sullivan

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Thanks for the confirmation, Tim.

Here's the link to USAT for those interested in the formal wording regarding dan certification.

http://www.usa-taekwondo.us/content/index/2358

Interesting to look at the link under guidelines where it talks about accelerated promotions and the requirements for them. Nothing martial arts related. I'd also be curious to know what the fees are. I couldn't find it, but I didn't look very hard, as I already have my first dan.

Danielhttp://www.usa-taekwondo.us/
 

miguksaram

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Now wait a minute, someone just told me a week or so ago (when I suggested they ought to open up competition to ANYONE in a punching/kicking art) that all you needed to compete was membership that costs $35 in forget which, USATaekwondo?

So which is it? This isn't "open" if you MUST have KKW certs :)
Well poop...I was going to answer your question, but CT beat me to it. :) Thanks CT.
 

igillman

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I'd also be curious to know what the fees are. I couldn't find it, but I didn't look very hard, as I already have my first dan.

Daniel

I took a look a while ago and found somewhere on the site (their old site) where they said that testing fees are available only to the people who run the member do-jangs. It was not worded quite like that but that is what it meant. In other words, they do not advertise their fees to the general public, only to the owners of the organisations who are part of their group.
 

zDom

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That gets you into any USAT tournament. The US olympic team is, I believe, pooled from USAT and requires a black belt. If USAT issues you a blackbelt, it is KKW according to the USAT site.

Daniel

So what are you saying? Does THIS mean I can send $35 to join the USAT and then I am automatically a KKW black belt?

Sweet! That's MUCH cheaper than $400 :)
 

Daniel Sullivan

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So what are you saying? Does THIS mean I can send $35 to join the USAT and then I am automatically a KKW black belt?

Sweet! That's MUCH cheaper than $400 :)
I wish! Joing USAT for 35.00 gets you into any USAT tournament. If I'm not mistaken, if you already have a blackbelt, then you can also compete in tournaments that require a blackbelt. I could be mistaken on that count.

If you do not have a blackbelt, and if your club is a USAT club, KKW or not, and they go through USAT for dan certs, then the certification is through KKW, as USAT is a KKW portal.

I have a real problem with this, as this bypasses whatever strictures and curriculum requirements that the KKW has originally set up for dan certification. USAT requirements seem to be entirely tournament related from what I see of their site.

Daniel
 

miguksaram

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I have a real problem with this, as this bypasses whatever strictures and curriculum requirements that the KKW has originally set up for dan certification. USAT requirements seem to be entirely tournament related from what I see of their site.

Daniel

I agree with this here. We have to depend on the USAT to uphold the standards, which, from what I hear, they do not do a great job.
 

Kwanjang

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I agree with this here. We have to depend on the USAT to uphold the standards, which, from what I hear, they do not do a great job.

I went to the first USAT Team poomse trial in San Diego. I was not impressed. There was a meeting prior to Comp. The jist of it was- a change in the front Stances, back stances, and one of the blocks. Been around long time- observed a wide variety of "ways" of people performing poomse.
The folks I picked to win didn't. It was opposite, like an episode of the Twilight Zone.
 

bluekey88

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I went to the first USAT Team poomse trial in San Diego. I was not impressed. There was a meeting prior to Comp. The jist of it was- a change in the front Stances, back stances, and one of the blocks. Been around long time- observed a wide variety of "ways" of people performing poomse.
The folks I picked to win didn't. It was opposite, like an episode of the Twilight Zone.

The poomse trials were a joke. I'm all for "standardizing" the poomse as over time, how various schools do them tends to diverge as "creep" enters into things. It certainly happened at our school. Unfortunately, the poomse trials were just one screw-up after another and didn't do anyone any favors.

Back to the topic at hand...I'm not certified by Kukkuiwon. It's an option should I choose to persue it, but I don't feel i get enough for my money at this time. I'm definitely not going to persue ti until I see how things shake out in Korea. In the end, it doesn't change what I do, how I practice or my future TKD plans.

Quite frankly, the Kukkiwon cert doesn't give me value for the money. I look at them as being similar to some professional organizations I belong to. I belong to the American Counselors Association (ACA) and the American Psychologist Assovciation (APA). With my annual membership I get access to professional trade journals as well as discount prices on other journals in the field. This info allows me to stay current with best practices in counseling and psychology and better treat my clients. I have access to a database of experts in the fields to better make referrals and to consult with should I need to learn more about a specific topic. I get access to professional liability insurance, access to seminars, and other training opportunities. In short, these associations help me in my profession.

Kukkiwon, I get a certificate. It's fairly easy to get a certificate as long as some 4th dan who is certified vouches for me. There is no check for meeting standards. I'd love to see teh kukkiwon do more to promote and maintain martial standards. I'd also like to see them do more as far as providing professional development services to those they certify 9access to training materials such as good books and dvd's, teaching materials, etc.) that would make that certificate more useful.

Peace,
Erik
 
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miguksaram

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Actually there are DVD's that are available which contain the standards set forth by the KKW. There are also training seminars held in Korea and America, though they are not an every month happening.

Will anyone be attending the US National Hanmadang tournament in June of 09?
 

bluekey88

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I know they sell DVD's, but those are available to anybody. I'm talking about access to stuff because I'm a member of the club. I'm talking about access to relevant training materials and research to improve how I teach what I teach. There's lots of things the Kukkiwon could do...but they don't.

Peace,
Erik
 

Daniel Sullivan

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Actually there are DVD's that are available which contain the standards set forth by the KKW. There are also training seminars held in Korea and America, though they are not an every month happening.

Will anyone be attending the US National Hanmadang tournament in June of 09?
God, I hope so!

Daniel
 
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