Fleecing black belts

Gwai Lo Dan

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... if you're going to be doing demonstrations and tournaments to represent the school it's only right to have gear that has the school name on it.

I was actually talking about buying standard equipment (i.e., without a school logo) from the school. Having the school name on it is even worse in my opinion, as another school will be even less likely to allow the student to use their own equipment rather than buying it from the school.
 

WaterGal

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I respectfully disagree. Demos are advertisement for your school. Your students are essentially participating in an advertisement. They're already paying to attend class and for the privilege to test. Cost of demos and equipment for them should be part of the schools advertising budget and written off at tax time. Not passed onto the students, who aside from pride and recognition, really don't get anything out of it.

Like I said, we don't charge for demo team. I agree that it does help promote the school, so I feel like we can eat the cost.

But I disagree with on your last point. Students should be getting something more out of demo team than pride and recognition. I can't speak for other schools, but our demo/competition team gets special training above and beyond the other students. They spend 1-2 hours a week learning things like how to do back flips, break tiles, and flashier kicks (540, etc) than we usually do in regular class. They do extra cardio endurance training. And when demo season is over they get more intense sparring training so they can do competitions.

To be honest, that's one of the main reasons we do demo/competition team. I think it's important to have a place for the more dedicated students to get more intense training and learn extracurricular material. I think a lot of schools feel that people should have to pay extra money to get that extra value.
 

Gwai Lo Dan

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Students should be getting something more out of demo team than pride and recognition. I can't speak for other schools, but our demo/competition team gets special training above and beyond the other students. They spend 1-2 hours a week learning things like how to do back flips, break tiles, and flashier kicks (540, etc) than we usually do in regular class.
How do you bring new students into the demo team? I imagine you want the best to be on your demo team, so I am curious about the lower ranked students who can't put on as good of a demo. Also, do the less athletic form part of the team, or is it only the best students?

If it's only the most athletic and impressive students, is it in a way like the Russian gulags - the strong who do good work get more food and continue to get stronger, while the weak who can't do as much get less food and stay weak?
 

Daniel Sullivan

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Like I said, we don't charge for demo team. I agree that it does help promote the school, so I feel like we can eat the cost.
Understood, but I was specifically referring to schools who do charge.

But I disagree with on your last point. Students should be getting something more out of demo team than pride and recognition. I can't speak for other schools, but our demo/competition team gets special training above and beyond the other students. They spend 1-2 hours a week learning things like how to do back flips, break tiles, and flashier kicks (540, etc) than we usually do in regular class. They do extra cardio endurance training. And when demo season is over they get more intense sparring training so they can do competitions.

To be honest, that's one of the main reasons we do demo/competition team. I think it's important to have a place for the more dedicated students to get more intense training and learn extracurricular material. I think a lot of schools feel that people should have to pay extra money to get that extra value.
A demo/competition team is really a competition team that also does demos. Nothing wrong with that, but the idea that I should charge you for the privilege of doing all the hard work to make my school look good is an idea that I personally cannot embrace.
 

Dirty Dog

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We have a really complicated, detailed, and rigid approach to the demo team.

We announce the demo. Whoever is available and interested in doing it shows up.
 

andyjeffries

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What is the real cost of kkw registration? In my area, they charge $80-$100.

The current cost of Kukkiwon 1st Dan is US$70. For interest the remaining fees are (2nd=US$90, 3rd=US$120, 4th=US$150, 5th=US$300, 6th=US$350, 7th=US$450, 8th=US$275, 9th=US$275). Yes, it's not a typo, the 8th and 9th Dan costs go down (I assume because you have to go to Korea to test for those, so they charge a little less in recognition that it will cost you extra to visit Korea for them).

Source: Grandmaster Kim, Joong-Young, President of Changmookwan, Vice-chairman of Kukkiwon High Dan Promotion Test Panel - 22nd August 2013
 

Gwai Lo Dan

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Andy, do you know whether a foreigner can test in Korea for 1st dan by going to KKW at some designated time and paying the USD70 for a test? There was a post maybe a year ago asking that, but I don't think it was ever answered conclusively, and you seem to be "in the know".
 

WaterGal

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How do you bring new students into the demo team? I imagine you want the best to be on your demo team, so I am curious about the lower ranked students who can't put on as good of a demo. Also, do the less athletic form part of the team, or is it only the best students?

If it's only the most athletic and impressive students, is it in a way like the Russian gulags - the strong who do good work get more food and continue to get stronger, while the weak who can't do as much get less food and stay weak?

We have open try-outs. Anyone that can do all their forms correctly, break some boards, run two miles and show good attitude can be on the team. Even if they're a yellow belt. (I actually really like having lower belts on the team, because it shows both the students and the audience that they can learn cool things at our school even without studying for years.)

More experienced or acrobatic/athletic people are obviously going to be able to do more at the demo, but everybody gets to do something, even if it's just breaking a few boards and doing Taegeuk 1.
 

WaterGal

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Understood, but I was specifically referring to schools who do charge.

Sure, and I was explaining why some other schools might decide to charge, because it involves a lot of extra work and money on the master's part.

A demo/competition team is really a competition team that also does demos.

Not really, at least not with us. People can choose to do competitions, demos, or both. Competitions around here are mostly held when it's too cold to do demos, so we can focus on one or the other depending on the time of year.

ETA: I actually prefer demos over competitions, because they teach cooperation and don't cost the students money.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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ETA: I actually prefer demos over competitions, because they teach cooperation and don't cost the students money.

The two aren't really comparable. For the student, demos are like a grading in that they require the student to perform at peak ability in front of others. A demo can also allow for a student to show a measure of creativity. I was asked to create my own form for a demo some time ago. It was a lot of fun to do and it was a task that required me to take into consideration different elements of the art and make a coherent expression of the art.

Competition allows the students to test their skills in a tallent pool larger than that of their own school and generally require the student to be in top condition and to train particularly hard, generally harder than for demos precisely because of the competitive element.

Demos and competitions are both of value to the student, but for different reasons.
 

andyjeffries

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Andy, do you know whether a foreigner can test in Korea for 1st dan by going to KKW at some designated time and paying the USD70 for a test? There was a post maybe a year ago asking that, but I don't think it was ever answered conclusively, and you seem to be "in the know".

I'm due to speak to the Kukkiwon about another matter, but the guy I need to speak to isn't working today. When I speak to him (hopefully later today or tomorrow) I'll ask him for you.
 

Gwai Lo Dan

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Thanks Andy. I would guess that if it is possible, the test would be in Korean, so the challenge for non-Korean speakers would be to understand. For instance, if I were told to in Korean to do a front leg roundhouse, all I would understand is the "roundhouse" part, and I'd do a rear-leg roundhouse. If possible, I'd try to wait 1 second and see what one of the Koreans is doing!
 

Jaeimseu

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Thanks Andy. I would guess that if it is possible, the test would be in Korean, so the challenge for non-Korean speakers would be to understand. For instance, if I were told to in Korean to do a front leg roundhouse, all I would understand is the "roundhouse" part, and I'd do a rear-leg roundhouse. If possible, I'd try to wait 1 second and see what one of the Koreans is doing!

The test is conducted in Korean, however there is a sign with a number for poomsae, and testers are usually in groups of 10 or a little more, so if you're unsure of a command then you can take a peek at the others around you.

The typical test consists of some basic movements, kicking combinations in the air(no targets), a couple of poomsae, and then one "round" of sparring (anywhere from 30-90 seconds).

Hopefully Andy can give a definitive answer, but I was under the impression that you needed 6 months residence to test at Kukkiwon.

Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk 2
 

andyjeffries

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Hopefully Andy can give a definitive answer, but I was under the impression that you needed 6 months residence to test at Kukkiwon.

I just spoke to a friend at the Kukkiwon. She said that only skip dans can be performed at Kukkiwon for less than 8th Dan. So no non-resident foreigner could do a test at Kukkiwon for 1st Dan. If they can get a 4th Dan or higher to recommend them for jump dan to 2nd Dan, they could do that.

I think there may be access methods if you go through (and have a good relationship with) your kwan, but aside from that it's a no go.
 

WaterGal

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The two aren't really comparable. For the student, demos are like a grading in that they require the student to perform at peak ability in front of others. A demo can also allow for a student to show a measure of creativity. I was asked to create my own form for a demo some time ago. It was a lot of fun to do and it was a task that required me to take into consideration different elements of the art and make a coherent expression of the art.

Competition allows the students to test their skills in a tallent pool larger than that of their own school and generally require the student to be in top condition and to train particularly hard, generally harder than for demos precisely because of the competitive element.

Demos and competitions are both of value to the student, but for different reasons.

I agree with that, but I mean with finite time and resources, I'd choose demos and training for them over competitions and training for that (even though logistically/organizationally demos are more work and expense for us). I think, as the school and team grows, though, we'll have to see what people's preferences are and work with that.
 

WaterGal

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That's interesting. Mr WaterGal was interested in doing his 5th at KKW, because it would be cool and all that, but GM dissuaded him on the grounds that being severely jet-lagged in an unfamiliar place where the test is entirely conducted in Korean might not lead to the best possible test performance. He seemed to think it would be possible for him to arrange it, but like you say there might be access methods for a Korean grandmaster that others don't have. Or he just might not know.
 

Koshiki

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Wow. My original schools BB testing fees are all in the $50-100 range... That said, it's not exactly an affluent area, fees haven't increased in the 13 years I've been there, and the Shihan is among the worst businessmen I have ever met...
 
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