Martial Artists With Most Black Belt

[Maddogkull]

Martial Artists With Most Black Belts?? Anyone know?

Ron Van Clief comes to mind with over 12 black belts in 12 different styles. Anyone know of anyone who has more? If so wanna name them?

 

[Franc0]

When you consider how much time it takes to honestly EARN a ligitimate black belt, I would think anyone holding more than maybe 6 or 7 black belts earned some of them through "honorary" means.
Keeping in mind that earning a BB is the true beginning of your martial journey and not the end, it seems silly to start all over to just to earn another BB for the sake of piling them up.
But, like Mr. Van Clief, there are those exceptional individuals who exemplify what it means to be a lifelong student of the arts.
Dan Inosanto, who's considered by many to be a walking encyclopedia of the martial arts, holds EARNED BB/Instructor rank in Ed Parkers American Kenpo, JFJKD, Filipino Kali/ Escrima, Machado BJJ, Silat Serak, Shoot Wrestling, Muay Thai, Malaysian Bersilat, Mande Muda Pencak Silat, Majapahit Martial Arts, Krabi Krabong & French Savate. And I might have missed a system or two! Oh yeah, he's also the Founder of Maphilindo Silat.

Franco

 

[searcher]

The questions should be, "Why would someone want 12+ black belts?" I don't see how any one person could have that much time. I am all over taking different styles and learning everything I can, but 12+ styles? Seems a bit in the overkill department.

And the key term is legitimate. Many can claim BB rank in different styles, but are they legit? I doubt it.

 

[searcher]

The questions should be, "Why would someone want 12+ black belts?" I don't see how any one person could have that much time. I am all over taking different styles and learning everything I can, but 12+ styles? Seems a bit in the overkill department.

And the key term is legitimate. Many can claim BB rank in different styles, but are they legit? I doubt it.

 

[Blade96]

The questions should be, "Why would someone want 12+ black belts?"

*rolls eyes*

I agree. My nidan (now sandan since he passed grading yesterday) also has a BB in judo and that's all. Even my senseis only study Shotokan. (although they did train under Tsuruoka-sensei who was not shotokan)

I myself only want the one BB - in Shotokan. That's the art to which I want dedicate my MA life.

 

[JWLuiza]

1. Guy with 12 1st degrees < Guy with 6 2nd Degrees
2. Guy with 6 2nd degrees < Guy with 2 6th Degrees
3. Guy with a 12th degree < Beginner students.

 

[dancingalone]

Here is a similar thread from a few years ago. Some interesting thoughts about rank in similar systems and honorary ranks.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55020

Me, I'm well in to my middle years, and I sometimes feel like I have a lot of bling at yondan in Goju-ryu karate, yidan in tae kwon do, and shodan (perhaps soon to be nidan) in aikido. The ranks recounted on that thread for some people are CRAZY though.

 

[Omar B]

One could spend a lifetime on one style, I never understood the motivation to jump around. But then, it's not me or my choices, people do what they think is best for their own development.

There are many styles I'm keenly interested in but I want to stay contained to the few things I grew up with ... and maybe ad Kenpo, because that just makes 4. LOL.

 

[JWLuiza]

Here is a similar thread from a few years ago. Some interesting thoughts about rank in similar systems and honorary ranks.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55020

Me, I'm well in to my middle years, and I sometimes feel like I have a lot of bling at yondan in Goju-ryu karate, yidan in tae kwon do, and shodan (perhaps soon to be nidan) in aikido. The ranks recounted on that thread for some people are CRAZY though.

Those ranks seem plausible and don't make me think "fake". It is nice bling though

 

[searcher]

I think many people, myself included, are on a search for what is missing in their individual growth. It took me quite a while to find what was missing in my own development, so I ended up with BBs in styles I never intend to teach. Even though I take pieces of them and give them to my students.

I just wish I could have found what I was after earlier in my martial journey. It would have saved space in my brain and money from my pocket.

 

[MJS]

Why would someone want 12 or more Black Belts? Simple...status, ego, to make people go ohhh and ahhhh. There have been times when I've flat out asked people how its possible for them to have not only more than 1 BB, but multiple high ranking BBs. I mean, if we use the theory of advancing after waiting the number of years for the belt you're going for, ex: to go from 1st degree to 2nd degree, its 2yrs, 2nd to 3rd, 3yrs, etc. then technically, unless the person started training when they were 3, which IMO, I think is a joke, but thats another thread, then one would figure there wouldn't be enough time in the day to possibly reach multi BB and high rank in each.

So, when I ask these questions, the usual reply is the person or defenders of this person, saying that I'm doubting the persons skill. Ummm...no, I'm not questioning their skill. I'm questioning how the hell its possible, and of course, nobody ever answers.

So, as far the the OPs question in this thread....I have no idea. IMHO, for me, what matters most is not the number of belts or the number of stripes. What matters most, is how well they can apply the material, make it work, teach it, etc. Those are the things that matter to me.

 

[Sukerkin]

Exactly the core question I was going to ask, MJS. Or more accurately I was going to ask why any particular martial arts practitioner would care about the number of different ranks someone else held?

If anything, for me as an individual, finding that someone held multiple dan grades, each in a different art, would lead me to seriously question either their honesty or why they lacked focus.

 

[MJS]

Exactly the core question I was going to ask, MJS. Or more accurately I was going to ask why any particular martial arts practitioner would care about the number of different ranks someone else held?

If anything, for me as an individual, finding that someone held multiple dan grades, each in a different art, would lead me to seriously question either their honesty or why they lacked focus.

You bring up a good point, and its similar to people who jump from one job to the next. They spend a few months at one, a year at the next, a few weeks, etc. No real solid base.

Now, I hold black belts in 2 arts, Kenpo and Arnis. However, in the grand scheme of things, they're relatively low ranks, 3rd and 1st. I still train in both, and yes, people wonder how this is possible...how its possible to advance, etc. Believe it or not, I train in both weekly. My theory has always been to concern myself with learning, not picking up rank.

Does this process take longer? Absolutely, but it can be done. I do find it interesting though, to see people with multiple 6th, 7th, and even 8th degree ranks. Now between work, family, having a life outside of the arts...how this can be done...well, it remains a mystery. LOL.

 

[searcher]

Sukerkin and MJS-I could see how multiple BBs would not be difficult, even high ranks, if they are similar in nature/origin. I will use myself as an example. When I gained my BB ranks in Chito-ryu, kobudo, and Isshinryu, it was not really that difficult to accomplish. The C-ryu and Kobudo ranks came at nearly the same time, as they were taught together on different nights at the same school. When I got my I-ryu BB I was teaching C-ryu and Kobudo when my I-ryu instructor approached me about training in I-ryu. All I had to do was pick up the Kata, bunkai, and subtle differences(vertical fist), then it was rather simple to pass the BB test.

Now, EPAK on the other hand, is taking quite a bit longer to work to BB rank. As many basics are the same with some being different, it is taking a while longer to make the changes in technique. Not to mention that the vast number of techniques and extensions are taking a while to get down.

If a person sticks to simple styles, it COULD be easier to pick up multiple ranks. But it still begs the question of WHY take on so many styles?

 

[MJS]

Sukerkin and MJS-I could see how multiple BBs would not be difficult, even high ranks, if they are similar in nature/origin. I will use myself as an example. When I gained my BB ranks in Chito-ryu, kobudo, and Isshinryu, it was not really that difficult to accomplish. The C-ryu and Kobudo ranks came at nearly the same time, as they were taught together on different nights at the same school. When I got my I-ryu BB I was teaching C-ryu and Kobudo when my I-ryu instructor approached me about training in I-ryu. All I had to do was pick up the Kata, bunkai, and subtle differences(vertical fist), then it was rather simple to pass the BB test.

Now, EPAK on the other hand, is taking quite a bit longer to work to BB rank. As many basics are the same with some being different, it is taking a while longer to make the changes in technique. Not to mention that the vast number of techniques and extensions are taking a while to get down.

If a person sticks to simple styles, it COULD be easier to pick up multiple ranks. But it still begs the question of WHY take on so many styles?

Points taken. If you dont mind me asking, what are your ranks in those arts? I ask for this reason: As I said in my previous post, I too, train in more than 1 art, and am at black belt level in both of them. However, the ranks are, as I said, 1st and 3rd degree. So yes, it is very possible, as you and I are both examples of that. I grapple, but have no BJJ rank.

I mentioned high rank as well. In your opinion, do you feel that its also possible, to reach high levels of BB in 4 or 5 arts, that are fairly similar? Do you feel that there should be any time in grade? I ask this because if there isn't, then its possible for someone to reach 7th or 9th degree in a relatively short amount of time. Its interesting though, because if we look at something like BJJ, it seems that thats an art, in which very few move thru the ranks quickly. What is it...like 10yrs or so for a BJJ BB? Yet 10yrs in Kenpo, and you could probably attain at least a 2nd, maybe 3rd degree. Of course, this is assuming the person trains 2-3x/week.

Like I said, for myself, I'm concerned with learning and bettering myself and my training, not with collecting more degrees. If/when it happens, it happens.

Why would someone want to train in more than one? I did it because the majority of the other Kenpo people I trained with, also trained in something else, so I fell into it. I do it, because the arts I do each have their strong points. They each specialize in a particular thing, and all of them blend very well together.

 

[dbell]

I am almost reluctant to respond to this because of the flack, flaming, etc, I potentially see coming my way, but...

I studied Judo for 10 years as a white belt before taking my first test (started at 8 years of age (the day after I turned 8). Since then I have reached 5th Dan in Judo. At the age of 10 my Judo Sensei started me in Aikido and Kendo as part of my daily training. I have reached 8th Dan in Aikido, and was named Head of Family (10th Dan) in Kendo at the death of my Sensei, who was Head of Family, two years ago this coming December. I have trained in all three all my life, pretty much actively, since I started in them. (There were times in the Military where I was unable to train (9 months in a foreign country, etc.) When in Korea I added Tang Soo Do, which I have worked up to 3rd Dan (Blue Belt (with black stripe) in that style), and Hapkido, which I worked up to 3rd Dan. I continue to study these arts as well. (At least when I can with those that are able to work with me on growing in them.)

I practice all these arts daily, individually, then in a mixed form I have been working on over the past 12+ years...

These ranks have taken a lot of time in training, practice, and teaching to achieve, and are still just a beginning to me....

Happy Training...

 

[geezer]

I am almost reluctant to respond to this because of the flack, flaming, etc, I potentially see coming my way, but...

And then you followed with a pretty logical explanation. No call for flaming there. Besides, dbell in previous posts you've stated that you just love to study things and pursue them until you get an advanced degree, be it a BB or a PhD. Moreover, the arts you study strike me as all quite compatible, that is similar, or at least complementary. Judo and Aikido-somewhat similar: Japanese, focusing on grappling and locks, and also: Tang Soo Do and Hakido, --Korean with Japanese influence, focusing on kicking and striking, with some aikijujutsu-like grappling. And then Kendo. Basically all five having similar Japanese and Korean roots an addressing three complementary areas: grappling/throwing/locking, kicking/striking, and swordsmanship. Its a handful, but for a life long martial-artist like yourself, not at all an unreasonable combination.

What is hard to accept is the claim by fairly young people still in their twenties, thirties, and even forties, of having mastered half a dozen complex styles that are fundamentally contradictory in their approach. Even if a person did have the intellect, "kinesthetic intelligence" and memory to actually assimilate so much, how much use could it be? If you learn systems that practice diametrically opposed solutions to combat scenarios, how can you ever develop a reliable "muscle-memory, or set of instincts to fall back on under stress?

If, for example you spend the necessary years to perfect a "soft", yielding system that never blocks but rather yields, absorbs, and deflects oncoming strikes (like the branch of Ving Tsun I train) you certainly wouldn't want to simultaneously train something very "hard", like Shotokan. Both work individually... but not combined! Those of us who train in more than one art have to be very careful which arts we select. If one art calls for you to do the exact opposite of the other, better not to train both!

 

[searcher]

Points taken. If you dont mind me asking, what are your ranks in those arts? I ask for this reason: As I said in my previous post, I too, train in more than 1 art, and am at black belt level in both of them.

6th Dan in Chito-ryu, 5th Dan in Kobudo, 3rd Dan in Isshinryu, blue belt in EPAK(started over last year after a 20 year absence in the style). I trained in TKD until last year, when my instructor passed away. I only keep up with the Hyungs now and I do not actively work towards rank in it anymore. The Ch'ang H'on forms were very quick to pick up, as they had a very Karate-esque feel to them. Easy to pick up, forever to get right.

I am also pursuing rank in Gracie Jiujitsu(yes, via the video system) in addition to my training in EPAK. Since the systems are so different, they don't interfere with the picking up of techniques. People can say what they want about video training and testing, but the material is amazing in its layout and usefulness.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Personally, I think that most of those with numerous high ranks have been cross-ranked. I could be wrong, but that is the sense that I have had over the years. I am not going to get into whether the practice is good or bad or whether or not the cross-ranked person is "legit" or not.

Generally, the mentality behind cross-ranking (celebrity cross-ranking not withstanding) is that you have a mature, well developed person in a particular art and when they begin another art, the school or org. is cross ranking them with the assumption that this person has already developed their mind and has a solid base upon which to build. The idea then is that the person will learn the system in earnest.

The more similar the systems, the more this makes sense. Of course there is also a lot of cross ranking that boils down to social clubs extending privileges to people from other recognized social clubs.

If the person in question is in one school with multiple arts, at that point the master already knows the person in question and may feel that this person is "a blackbelt" within the school.

Then of course you have seminars and organizations that will rank you in their system if you hold an existing rank. This is done entirely to promote the organization.

Then you have distance ranking, as mentioned by Searcher.

As I said; I am not getting into whether any of these scenarios are good or bad; I think that it really varies depending on the circumstances.

I am, of course, excluding cross ranking that involves the outright buying and selling of rank, which is never good.

Daniel

 

[FearlessFreep]

Disclosure: Only been training six years so opinions are probably naive

My understanding for any art is that Black Belt is just the beginning. It means you have a basic understanding of the mechanics of the physical portions of the art. So it seems to me that unless you get fairly beyond that level, you really only sorta know the art anyway.

I guess what I mean is that even if your BB in an art is perfectly legit. Just having the BB doesn't really mean much in itself until you spend a few years training in the art at that level.